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babysaph38 07-07-09 01:12 PM

Tour de France-I don't get it
 
So if Cavendish won 2 stages shouldn't he be leading. I don't understand the way the points are given. Seems that the rider that gets from point a to be the fastest would be the winner. Where can you go learn the scoring.

Laggard 07-07-09 01:28 PM

The rider with the lowest total elapsed time is the leader. Cav may have won two stages but he lost lots of time in the TT and thus is not the leader. You can with a stage race without winning a single stage. Anyone know the last time this was done?

DMF 07-07-09 01:33 PM

He *is* leading - the Green Jersey (points) competition. The GC competition (overall leader) is a whole different animal.

There are five major competitions going on simultaneously:

General Classification (Yellow Jersey) - total elapsed time
Sprint or Points (Green Jersey) - total sprint points earned
King of the Mountain (Polka Dot Jersey) - total climber points earned
Young Rider (White Jersey) - GC for 24(?) and under
Team (Yellow Numbers) - total elapsed time for the top three team members on each stage

http://www.letour.fr/2009/TDF/LIVE/us/reglements.html

Dolomiti 07-07-09 01:58 PM

When a bunch of riders finish a stage together, they're all awarded the same time. So unless there are any gaps, the rider who wins a sprint finishes with the same time as the last placed rider on the stage.

kimconyc 07-07-09 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laggard (Post 9235045)
The rider with the lowest total elapsed time is the leader. Cav may have won two stages but he lost lots of time in the TT and thus is not the leader. You can with a stage race without winning a single stage. Anyone know the last time this was done?

Perhaps Oscar Pereiro 2006?

Lemond won in 1990 this way.

wearyourtruth 07-07-09 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laggard (Post 9235045)
The rider with the lowest total elapsed time is the leader. Cav may have won two stages but he lost lots of time in the TT and thus is not the leader.

true. here is a very basic example with 3 riders and a 4 stage race:

Stage 1:
1st: racer A: 9min
2nd: racer B: 10min
3rd: racer C: 12min
(winner A)

Stage 2:
1st: racer B: 10min
2nd: racer C: 12min
3rd: racer A: 13min
(winner B)

Stage 3:
1st: racer C: 12min
2nd: racer B: 13min
3rd: racer A: 15min
(winner C)

Stage 4:
1st: racer A: 7min
2nd: racer B: 8min
3rd: racer C: 10min
(winner A)

Overall:
1st: racer B: 41min
2nd: racer A: 44min
3rd: racer C: 46min

even though racer A won 2 stages and racer B only won 1, racer B was never far behind when he didn't win and the total of his 4 times is less than his competitors

Keith99 07-07-09 03:41 PM

Just a historical note. In the early years of the TDF there were a few tours where placeing determined the winner. Some pretty much like the green Jersey of today, but at least one year where it was finishing position of each stage and lowest score wins.

Allen H 07-07-09 04:49 PM

Follow the GC times & standings and don't pay so much attention to who wins a stage - it's all about cumulative time gaps, not stage wins, if you want to understand the Tour.

Howzit 07-07-09 05:14 PM

Although I hate Lance, this is why after stage 4, to me, Lance has done an insanely amazing job.
This is a guy who was retired for the last 4 years. Remember that more than half the peleton is struggling just to FINISH the Tour.
There are guys here who won the Tour during his retirement!!

And here Lance is, after stage 4 pretty much in Yellow. Like I said, as much as I hate Lance, there is no way around not giving the guy props.
I know how hard it is to race bikes, and this performance to me, after only 4 days and in yellow, after years of retirement form the top of the sport, is hard core.

As others are saying, follow the overall standing, and you will understand why im impressed with him.

jaxgtr 07-07-09 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laggard (Post 9235045)
The rider with the lowest total elapsed time is the leader. Cav may have won two stages but he lost lots of time in the TT and thus is not the leader. You can with a stage race without winning a single stage. Anyone know the last time this was done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimconyc (Post 9235326)

Lemond won in 1990 this way.

Winner, winner, winner...

Gordon Gekko 07-08-09 01:44 AM

Said another way, TDF scoring methods are similar to golf's stroke play (yellow and white jerseys) and match play (green and polka dot jerseys) scoring methods.

Metzinger 07-08-09 03:24 AM

A lot of useful info here.
I had always assumed that at the end of each stage, Don King decides who is the leader. Regardless of placing.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/don_king.jpg
Isn't that the way it works in boxing?

gabdy 07-08-09 04:53 AM

They use WADA scientists to work out the winner, it's far too complicated for most people.

USAZorro 07-08-09 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdy (Post 9238724)
They use WADA scientists to work out the winner, it's far too complicated for most people.

Touche.

Griffin2020 07-08-09 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howzit (Post 9236492)
Although I hate Lance, this is why after stage 4, to me, Lance has done an insanely amazing job.
This is a guy who was retired for the last 4 years. Remember that more than half the peleton is struggling just to FINISH the Tour.
There are guys here who won the Tour during his retirement!!

And here Lance is, after stage 4 pretty much in Yellow. Like I said, as much as I hate Lance, there is no way around not giving the guy props.
I know how hard it is to race bikes, and this performance to me, after only 4 days and in yellow, after years of retirement form the top of the sport, is hard core.

As others are saying, follow the overall standing, and you will understand why im impressed with him.

Who are you, and what did you do with Howzit?

chipcom 07-08-09 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howzit (Post 9236492)
Although I hate Lance, this is why after stage 4, to me, Lance has done an insanely amazing job.
This is a guy who was retired for the last 4 years. Remember that more than half the peleton is struggling just to FINISH the Tour.
There are guys here who won the Tour during his retirement!!

And here Lance is, after stage 4 pretty much in Yellow. Like I said, as much as I hate Lance, there is no way around not giving the guy props.
I know how hard it is to race bikes, and this performance to me, after only 4 days and in yellow, after years of retirement form the top of the sport, is hard core.

As others are saying, follow the overall standing, and you will understand why im impressed with him.

What does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread? I understand that you have some kind of obsession with Lance Armstrong, but please confine your enthusiasm to threads where he is the topic. I appreciate your cooperation. Thanks.

dolfinack 07-08-09 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin2020 (Post 9239107)
Who are you, and what did you do with Howzit?

I was just thinking that...

Back to the thread... so if my newb brain is correct... seeing as LA and Cancellara are equal in time, if Lance breaks away and beats Cancellara in the next stage by more than a bike length he'll be in yellow?? If I understand the scoring i'll enjoy it a heckuvalot more. Please correct me if i'm wrong (entirely probable!)

luxroadie 07-08-09 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffin2020 (Post 9239107)
who are you, and what did you do with howzit?

+1

Keith99 07-08-09 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolfinack (Post 9239959)
I was just thinking that...

Back to the thread... so if my newb brain is correct... seeing as LA and Cancellara are equal in time, if Lance breaks away and beats Cancellara in the next stage by more than a bike length he'll be in yellow?? If I understand the scoring i'll enjoy it a heckuvalot more. Please correct me if i'm wrong (entirely probable!)

It is actually a judgement call if there is a large enough gap for time differences. They often do not count gaps that open back in the peleton when riders are coasting over the line that would be counted up front when riders are sprinting for the line.

The intent of the same time rule is that riders are not jockeying for seconds in the middle of the pack, which would create a very dangerous situation.

But yes, if Lance breaks off the front and gets a gap he will get a second or more.

dolfinack 07-08-09 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 9240201)
It is actually a judgement call if there is a large enough gap for time differences. They often do not count gaps that open back in the peleton when riders are coasting over the line that would be counted up front when riders are sprinting for the line.

The intent of the same time rule is that riders are not jockeying for seconds in the middle of the pack, which would create a very dangerous situation.

But yes, if Lance breaks off the front and gets a gap he will get a second or more.

Cool makes sense, thanks buddy.

Paniolo 07-08-09 12:06 PM

Yeah, on flat stages if you finish with a group they all get the same time from the first guy to the last guy. And they are pretty liberal with allowing small gaps. Another point if you crash or flat in the last 1k you also get the same time as the peloton. These rules were added to protect the riders and reduce the insanity at the finish line. It's bad enough just for the guys trying for the win.

Now on mountain finishes time gaps are awarded on very small splits and it is not uncommon to pick up a second or two even mid pack. Again it all has to do with safety. On a mtn finish you don't have the high speeds, people jostling to get onto wheels for a lead out or large speed differentials as someone pulling off a leadout and slowing is overtaken by others just kicking their sprints.


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