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  1. #1
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Greg LeMond, Avg Speed Time Trial, Clean rider

    Ok, so i know LeMond has become controversial and all of that, but there is no denying his records, or his achievments.

    An interesting fact, Greg's 89 Time Trial stage win with Avg speed of 54.545 kph, stood for almost 20 years, only being cracked by David Zabriskie, and not by much, at 54.676 km/h, a trivial beating really, in 2005.

    If you read this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ses_in_cycling

    Do you guys have any thoughts or feelings on this record?
    Have you guys seen the bike he rode, and the training plans and programs they had back then?

    Im just wondering, if a man was this good, how could he have not won 10 Tours?

  2. #2
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Getting shot in the off season tends to ruin a streak.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  3. #3
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    O.K. posting the wiki link in every thread is getting a little old already.

    He could not win 10 tours because the tour is about a lot more than individual time trialing. Given your resonses in other threads, I know that I don't need to educate on this. So why start a thread and ask a question you already know the answer to, other than to give yourself another place to post that link?

    :edit: And yes, not getting shot seems to help. I really wonder why Greg has chosen to support Tour de Cure instead of starting an initiative to support *** Safety and Hunter Education? Now that would make all the sense in the world.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  4. #4
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I really wonder why Greg has chosen to support Tour de Cure instead of starting an initiative to support *** Safety and Hunter Education? Now that would make all the sense in the world.
    Thats kinda funny.

    Any-whoo, 'bout the fancy gunshot remark from both of you, Lance got cancer and won 7.
    Why dont you focus on the question instead of trying to attack me? I was hoping you both knew your cycling history better, tsk, tsk, tsk.
    Guess what, he set that record AFTER he got shot

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    Hey mate, Greg is the one who has repeatedly credited the *** shot as one of the issues that shortened his competitive career. Now this Armstrong character comes along and has the audacity to not only eclipse Greg's Tour total but does so after cancer. What a ***** slap!

    Oh, and I've already answered your question. How about answering the one I posed in kind?
    Last edited by bigfred; 07-08-09 at 08:50 PM.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  6. #6
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
    Thats kinda funny.

    Any-whoo, 'bout the fancy gunshot remark from both of you, Lance got cancer and won 7.
    Why dont you focus on the question instead of trying to attack me? I was hoping you both knew your cycling history better, tsk, tsk, tsk.
    Guess what, he set that record AFTER he got shot
    You are wearing on my patience. I did not attack you, I merely mentioned an obvious fact of history. You didn't ask about his record, you asked why he didn't win 10 tours.

    Im just wondering, if a man was this good, how could he have not won 10 Tours?
    It took two years for Lemond to recover from that accident...yes he came back, but two years off one's life is two years off one's life that cannot be recovered. Indeed, if you listen to what Lemond has said over the years, you'd know why he finally quit without having to post lame threads on the intrawebz.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  7. #7
    Senior Member Cipher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
    Do you guys have any thoughts or feelings on this record?
    Have you guys seen the bike he rode, and the training plans and programs they had back then?

    Im just wondering, if a man was this good, how could he have not won 10 Tours?

    I had a chance to look over the bike that Greg rode to win that T.T. and in comparison I don't believe it was on par with the equipment available to the riders during the '05 tour. That said, was it the difference between the 2 times? I don't know... Their were certainly a lot of other factors to consider as well. (Terrain, headwinds, Temp. the design of the aero bars, and the position of the rider using them etc.) Being a little bias, I would like to think that the (slightly) improved equipment used in the '05 tour might have improved Greg's time by a few seconds...
    Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!

  8. #8
    On the road to health. Griffin2020's Avatar
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    LeMond has said that most of the course in his record ITT was downhill, then flat. He also hates discussing it, and attempts to divert away from it. Perhaps because he was ot as clean as he would have us believe?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Cipher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin2020 View Post
    Perhaps because he was ot as clean as he would have us believe?
    Don't bet on it... (But I will ask him about that particular T.T.)
    Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!

  10. #10
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Hey mate, Greg is the one who has repeatedly credited the *** shot as one of the issues that shortened his competitive career. Now this Armstrong character comes along and has the audacity to not only eclipse Greg's Tour total but does so after cancer. What a ***** slap!

    Oh, and I've already answered your question. How about answering the one I posed in kind?
    If you have read the link I posted you dont have to click it, thanks. If you do not wish to participate in the thread, dont, thanks. Your invalid points are clearly to antagonize me, please dont, thanks.
    Your post has no bearing, the record was set after his Gunshot, he won two tours de france after the gunshot.
    Lastly, Greg credits his shortened career to doping scandals.

    Moving on, I did think about the course, wind and so on, but still, a record of nearly 20 years? Even after Pros who have been known a Time Trial specialists?
    Was the use of EPO that strong for other riders that they would destroy a man capable of riding with such strength?

    Looking at the bike, I must admit, thats an extremely impressive speed.

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    Or, look at it this way: That record is proof positive that Greg is as big a doper as the rest. If all those that came after him had the 10-20% advantage that doping supposedly provides and yet the record stood for so long. Then logic would suggest that Greg too, was on the juice. Or, perhaps you would rather contend, Greg was/is simply 10-20% stronger than every other rider to have come along since. Wow, do you really expect that arguement to be accepted? If not. Then we must consider that for that record to have stood as long as it has, Greg was juiced to the gills for that ride.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  12. #12
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Or, look at it this way: That record is proof positive that Greg is as big a doper as the rest. If all those that came after him had the 10-20% advantage that doping supposedly provides and yet the record stood for so long. Then logic would suggest that Greg too, was on the juice. Or, perhaps you would rather contend, Greg was/is simply 10-20% stronger than every other rider to have come along since. Wow, do you really expect that arguement to be accepted? If not. Then we must consider that for that record to have stood as long as it has, Greg was juiced to the gills for that ride.
    Exactly.
    If Greg was 10-20% stronger, then why didnt he win something like 8 TdFs?
    Thats what Im wondering

  13. #13
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Greg Lemond, clean? My ass.
    He did the same things that everyone else was doing. When he started getting slow, he took the clean stance and quit cycling.

    Personally, I don't see Lemond as a winner of anything; not because of the dope, but because how he feverishly proclaims his cleanliness in a time that was tainted, and impossible to win clean.

  14. #14
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
    Greg Lemond, clean? My ass.
    He did the same things that everyone else was doing. When he started getting slow, he took the clean stance and quit cycling.

    Personally, I don't see Lemond as a winner of anything; not because of the dope, but because how he feverishly proclaims his cleanliness in a time that was tainted, and impossible to win clean.
    Ok, fair enough, but good sir, it would seem that EPO was indeed introduced at the time Greg was quiting. So, he won and set that record before EPO.
    Having said that, most other stuff was fairly easy to detect at that point in time.
    So what then, could he be on if anything?

  15. #15
    Senior Member Cipher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
    If Greg was 10-20% stronger, then why didnt he win something like 8 TdFs?
    Thats what Im wondering
    Having the support of a strong team surrounding you would certainly help. In his 1st win, he rode with only the support of 2 riders, Bauer and Hampsten (Hinault had the support of the rest of that team). In 1990, the support of his team was pathetic.
    Last edited by Cipher; 07-08-09 at 10:57 PM.
    Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!

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    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Yes, EPO was the only drug in 1989. You're absolutely correct.

    And you can tell how easily detected drugs were back in 1989. Looka t how many times Laurent Fignon tested positive in the Tour alone, when he admitted to taking numerous drugs.



    And next time, don't use over embellished proper English ironically, it makes you sound like an idiot.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Cipher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
    Greg Lemond, clean? My ass.
    He did the same things that everyone else was doing.
    And of-course you have loads of facts to back this up...
    Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!

  18. #18
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
    Yes, EPO was the only drug in 1989. You're absolutely correct.

    And you can tell how easily detected drugs were back in 1989. Looka t how many times Laurent Fignon tested positive in the Tour alone, when he admitted to taking numerous drugs.



    And next time, don't use over embellished proper English ironically, it makes you sound like an idiot.
    Ok, your a tough nut, ill give you that.

    Please look at the wiki link I posted for reference.
    All the common substances were easy to detect. (Apology accepted)
    Nobody said that EPO was the only drug? Why do you seem to think that? (Again, refer to the wiki link I postes)

  19. #19
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    And of-course you have loads of facts to back this up...
    The same amount of facts that you have to contradict me. The tests from those days have nothing solid to them. They were a step above a multiple-choice drug test.

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    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
    Exactly.
    If Greg was 10-20% stronger, then why didnt he win something like 8 TdFs?
    Thats what Im wondering
    Indurain was arguably stronger than Greg. Why didn't he win 10 TDFs?

    All these doping accusations thrown around by people who know nothing. Don't like a guy? Accuse him of doping. Fuc*ing ridiculous and pathetic.
    Last edited by Laggard; 07-08-09 at 10:55 PM.
    i may have overreacted

  21. #21
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laggard View Post
    all good reasons to have "only" won three.
    :d:d

  22. #22
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Let me interject here that, supporting your argument with wikipedia links in a college thesis will earn you an "F" from a reputable institution.
    The search for inner peace continues...

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    Senior Member jaxgtr's Avatar
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    If I am not mistaken, doesn't he still have some buck-shot still lodge in the body??? I got to imagine the lead could have been leaching in his system and causing issues that would have effect his performance then and now.
    Brian | 2015 Cannondale Synapse Carbon 3 | 2014 Trek CrossRip Comp
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.

  24. #24
    Big Blade Howzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    Let me interject here that, supporting your argument with wikipedia links in a college thesis will earn you an "F" from a reputable institution.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    Let me interject here that, supporting your argument with wikipedia links in a college thesis will earn you an "F" from a reputable institution.
    Is there something factually wrong in the wiki link he posted? If not, spare me the pedantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaxgtr View Post
    If I am not mistaken, doesn't he still have some buck-shot still lodge in the body??? I got to imagine the lead could have been leaching in his system and causing issues that would have effect his performance then and now.
    Yes, he's alluded to this recently and may have to undergo more surgeries to remove the bird shot. It actually was bird shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
    Indurain was arguably stronger than Greg. Why didn't he win 10 TDFs?
    Because a guy(Mr. 60%)who utilized dope better than Indurain did, ended his reign. LeMond said he was in the best post shooting shape of his career in '91 and yet could only finish 7th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
    All these doping accusations thrown around by people who know nothing. Don't like a guy? Accuse him of doping. Fuc*ing ridiculous and pathetic.
    Lighten up Francis! When you employ a guy whose only claim to fame is doping guys with EPO, it don't look too good. Sticking one's head in the sand is what's ridiculous and pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
    The same amount of facts that you have to contradict me. The tests from those days have nothing solid to them. They were a step above a multiple-choice drug test.
    Really? They didn't catch Fignon, Delgado, Merckx, Ben Johnson? What year were you born? Jeez, they sent a man to the moon in '69. Seems to take a lot more technology to do that then to conduct any kind of doping or toxicology analysis.

    Howsit, I know exactly what you're getting at. Even after the shooting accident LeMond should have won more if the sport was clean. Something changed drastically, and the Italians with Conconi, Ferrari, and Cecchini insttitutionalized doping with EPO.

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