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Old 07-12-09, 05:18 PM   #1
Laggard
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Your opinions...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...our/index.html

Interesting piece. Mostly about Lance but partly on why Americans get their undies all up in a bunch when someone is caught doping.

"For Americans, doping is entwined with questions of character, with goodness and evil. For Europeans, doping is simply something that cyclists are known to do. C'est le métier, the French say: It's the job. ... [It's] the same divergence that occurs when a politician is caught out with a mistress: Americans get outraged -- How could he? While Europeans shrug -- But of course."

-- Daniel Coyle, in Lance Armstrong's War

"Any 7-year-old Flemish schoolchild," Bob Roll has written, "knows 100 times more about cycling than all Americans combined." "
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Old 07-12-09, 06:46 PM   #2
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That was pretty interesting! Alex Zulle's quote pretty much summed up the whole doping thing..."It's like being on the highway. The law says there's a speed limit of 100, but everyone is driving 120 or faster. Why should I be the one who obeys the speed limit? So I had two alternatives: either fit in and go along with the others, or go back to being a housepainter."
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Old 07-12-09, 07:19 PM   #3
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from a non-american living in the US - one word on the whole "americans would never dope" topic:

Baseball.

Pot / kettle / black springs to mind.... (and no I'm not passing any judgement on LA). But at the end of the day BOTH Europeans and Americans are all human - mostly ;-) - and so a certain % will be tempted to do whatever they can to win, legal or not....

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Old 07-12-09, 09:04 PM   #4
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rossp - I'm glad you came out of the closet first.

There didn't seem much more in that article than an embellished review of Kimmage's `Rough Ride'.

It's a rather hypocritical piece that conveniently forgets much of the doping that occurs here in other sports. It may be true that cycling is in general cleaner here than in Europe, but in a large part I suspect if its is, then it is because it is still mostly `amateur'. A reliance on performance enhancing pharmaceuticals appear to be widespread across other professional sports, baseball, weightlifting and even the great Carl Lewis being another obvious data point.

Nothing new here.
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Old 07-12-09, 10:18 PM   #5
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Good article. Americans, especially the American media, have really placed a double standard when it comes to their sports heros using performance-enhancing drugs.

I think the latter part of the article (p2-p3) hit the nail on the head. Lance Armstrong has more credible allegations regarding his alleged drug usage than does home run king Barry Bonds or track star Marion Jones. Yet, the American public, and media, have chosen to believe that Barry Bonds is guilty and that Armstrong is innocent. All this, even in the light of the more numerous evidence and allegations against Lance Armstrong.
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Old 07-13-09, 12:41 AM   #6
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I think the latter part of the article (p2-p3) hit the nail on the head. Lance Armstrong has more credible allegations regarding his alleged drug usage than does home run king Barry Bonds or track star Marion Jones. Yet, the American public, and media, have chosen to believe that Barry Bonds is guilty and that Armstrong is innocent. All this, even in the light of the more numerous evidence and allegations against Lance Armstrong.
Its a shame isnt it. But not a surprise,. Lance uses his cancer foundation a shield.

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It may be true that cycling is in general cleaner here than in Europe, but in a large part I suspect if its is, then it is because it is still mostly `amateur'. A reliance on performance enhancing pharmaceuticals appear to be widespread across other professional sports, baseball, weightlifting and even the great Carl Lewis being another obvious data point.

Nothing new here.
As a non American living in the states, I have stated in other threads that what most people on BF regard as cycling based on what they see on TV when watching the Tour is nothing what cycling is.
I have stated over and over how Lances tactics are hated by world fans of cycling.
The culture of cycling has always had the idea that a race should only have one finisher by the end (please read the article above if you havent). A strong man who came out a destroyed everyone else on the roads. Nobody in Europe believes that cycling is a "team" sport in the sense of like a basketball team as most BF people seem to believe. Soccer sure, cycling, not so much. When you talk about teams in cycling, its more "your comrades" on the road. Its not like football or basketball where you actually do teamwork crap.

There are a lot of cyclist being caught in the US. Look up doping cases in cycling on wikipedia. It gives a list.
Also, google USCF suspensions. There is a PDF that shows you the lastest growing list.

Last edited by Howzit; 07-13-09 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 07-13-09, 02:22 AM   #7
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There is a culture of doping in the pro peloton, but it has really gotten alot worse with the use of EPO in the 90s to the present. The Sports Illustrated article that Laggard points to has some very telling things in to about Armstrong's suspected EPO usage.

It states that there is documented proof of Armstrong utilizing the services of Dr. Michele Ferrari even though Dr. Ferrari was widely known as the Italian doctor who supplied EPO to the teams. EPO that is intended for anemic hospitalized patients. Ferrari once said that, ""anything that can't be found in drug tests isn't doping."

From 1995 to 2004, Lance Armstrong had regular consultations with Dr. Ferrari. A period that culminated in not one, but several Tour de France wins.
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Old 07-13-09, 03:57 AM   #8
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Yes. But Lance, unlike Basso, Landis et al, has not been caught for doping. Whatever cultural context and values surrounding the perception of dopers is irrelevant until he is busted.
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Old 07-13-09, 04:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...our/index.html

Interesting piece. Mostly about Lance but partly on why Americans get their undies all up in a bunch when someone is caught doping.

"For Americans, doping is entwined with questions of character, with goodness and evil. For Europeans, doping is simply something that cyclists are known to do. C'est le métier, the French say: It's the job. ... [It's] the same divergence that occurs when a politician is caught out with a mistress: Americans get outraged -- How could he? While Europeans shrug -- But of course."

-- Daniel Coyle, in Lance Armstrong's War

"Any 7-year-old Flemish schoolchild," Bob Roll has written, "knows 100 times more about cycling than all Americans combined." "
While I would change it to "most Americans" Bob Roll never said anything more accurately.

BTW...Lance has been tested 2 to 3 times a day, every day since the Tour started. Just so people know.

BTWII...having read the article, from my perspective it's spot on. Especially the early sections on European, and particularly Belgian cycling. Although I would not characterize Belgium as the "West Virginia of Europe".

Last edited by roadwarrior; 07-13-09 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 07-13-09, 07:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Eljimberino View Post
Yes. But Lance, unlike Basso, Landis et al, has not been caught for doping. Whatever cultural context and values surrounding the perception of dopers is irrelevant until he is busted.
Lance has been busted, you just choose not to believe the evidence.
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