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  1. #1
    Senior Member Jurgen's Avatar
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    "There was never a 'click' between the two, I don't know why"


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    Yah, that's obvious, and it's too bad as well, because Contador could of probably beaten Lance's seven in a row record if he could of stayed with Bruyneel. Now he probably will only win about four TDFS or so. We all know Kloden and Levi are going to follow Lance, and if anything, Kloden could be poised to beat Contador next year, if Lance doesn't.

    And which team do you think is going to have the most resources? Probably Lance's team.

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    Coach speak for "they both want to win as individuals." The 'click' bit is a way of 'explaining' the difference without giving the reason. The "I don't know why" part was just bull.

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    Let's see, young brashness up against accomplished ego. Can't see how they would not click.

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    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenisMenchov View Post
    Yah, that's obvious, and it's too bad as well, because Contador could of probably beaten Lance's seven in a row record if he could of stayed with Bruyneel. Now he probably will only win about four TDFS or so. We all know Kloden and Levi are going to follow Lance, and if anything, Kloden could be poised to beat Contador next year, if Lance doesn't.

    And which team do you think is going to have the most resources? Probably Lance's team.
    i think i understand why you are a menchov fan .

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    I'm no Contador fan, but, I'm a little disappointed by this. As has already been pointed out, Aberto will be hard pressed to find a team that will be able to offer the sort of depth, experience and financial backing that LA/JB will likely have. If he were to find a way to work with them, he could actually be considered as a potential breaker of Lance's record or at least going 5+. Oh well, as much as I would have liked to see him stay with them, it doesn't sound like it's going to happen.

    One question though: Doesn't he still have one year under contract to Johan's company? What if Johan won't release him? It would be a shame to see him excluded from next years tour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    One question though: Doesn't he still have one year under contract to Johan's company? What if Johan won't release him? It would be a shame to see him excluded from next years tour.
    There are a lot of theories floating around about this. One thing we do know, both LA and JB want to win. Cutting loose AC significantly drops there potential for winning a grand tour. Unless they can manage to snag the Schlecks. AC could go to another team and still be a force. AC is a dominant rider both climbing and in the TT. The TdF could drop the TTT or go back to the limited time gained rules. That would work against a stacked team like Astana. Beyond AC and Andy, who is there that is a serious GC threat to them? Andy could be a real challenger to Contador if he gets his TT down.

    So that leads us back to who will LA and JB look to be the leader? Despite all of the controversy, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to work it out. I tend to think LA has more of a problem with AC than JB does. Perhaps if LA gets into more of director role, he won't be annoyed so much by AC. Or maybe JB can convince him that keeping AC is a good thing. AC can be sucessful on another team. The idea that he'll lose as soon as he leaves Astana is foolish. If AC was on Garmin, he would be in the same position, leading. Someone still has to be able to out climb and TT the guy. And there's no one out there right now. LA and JB want to win grand tours. And the best GC rider out there is Alberto Contador and he's only 26. That's giving up on a lot because you can't get along. Ah well, who knows...
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

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    Senior Member Jurgen's Avatar
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    The sad thing is Bruyneel hitching his train to Armstrong and not Contador.

    I look forward to seeing what Lance does in 2010--does his cadence return as Carmichael suggests?--but Contador is without doubt the best rider in the world right now--and over a decade younger than Armstrong.

    But if the differences between the two riders are truly irreconcilable--which is a big "duh" given their goals--Bruyneel staying with Lance and finishing, oh, fifth in the 2010 Tour de France will clearly be much much more lucrative than potentially leading Contador to his third victory.
    Last edited by Jurgen; 07-23-09 at 12:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurgen View Post
    The sad thing is Bruyneel hitching his train to Armstrong and not Contador.

    I look forward to seeing what Lance does in 2010--does his cadence return as Carmichael suggests?--but Contador is without doubt the best rider in the world right now--and over a decade younger than Armstrong.

    But staying with Lance and finishing, oh, fifth in the 2010 Tour de France will clearly be much much more lucrative than potentially leading Contador to his third victory.
    Lance won't be better next year. At best he'll be the same as he is now. Carmichael is dreaming. He'll be more susceptible to injury. He won't recover day to day as well. He's a remarkable athlete. But Lance is fighting Father Time. No one wins.

    And Contador is younger and hasn't reached his peak yet. The same goes for Andy Schleck.
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DenisMenchov View Post
    Yah, that's obvious, and it's too bad as well, because Contador could of probably beaten Lance's seven in a row record if he could of stayed with Bruyneel.
    Oh please. Contador will win his second Tour this year (unless something drastic happens); but to beat Armstrong's seven victories, he'd still have to win as many Tour de Frances as Eddie ****ing Merckx. A lot of things can happen until then, and imo it is way more likely that he won't be able to that than that he will, despite being the dominant rider at the moment and regardless of whether he stays with Bruyneel or not...

    Bruyneel obviously is a very capable directeur sportif, but there are a lot of other smart guys in cycling besides him.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    One question though: Doesn't he still have one year under contract to Johan's company? What if Johan won't release him? It would be a shame to see him excluded from next years tour.
    No, Contador has a contract with Astana, which is also Bruynel's employer, but he's not tied to Bruyneel specifically.

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    In other threads it has been said that JB owns the team and contracts and that Astana owns the license. So, JB could potentially shelve AC if he felt like paying him for a year.
    I could see JB buying a license (even Astana's once it is worth nothing) and getting Radio Shack or whoever as a sponsor.
    I'd bet JB is done with -stan $s; no matter how much they dangle.
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    snob rogwilco's Avatar
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    Really?
    Disregard what I said then, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DenisMenchov View Post
    Yah, that's obvious, and it's too bad as well, because Contador could of probably beaten Lance's seven in a row record if he could of stayed with Bruyneel. Now he probably will only win about four TDFS or so. We all know Kloden and Levi are going to follow Lance, and if anything, Kloden could be poised to beat Contador next year, if Lance doesn't.

    And which team do you think is going to have the most resources? Probably Lance's team
    .

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    Climbing Above It All BikeWNC's Avatar
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    If I were JB, I wouldn't willingly let AC go unless it just couldn't be worked out. Johan is a very good DS but he may be suffering from too much success. It's like Jerry Krause GM of the Chicago Bulls when he said he could build a championship team after Jordan because he did it before. LOL. Of course JB doesn't have to deal with a draft and his team seems to have more money than the others. So I guess he will still field a very strong team without AC. Good enough to win? IDK.

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    reductio ad absurdum ericy's Avatar
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    People are speculating that AC won't go with JB/LA, but I don't think this is certain. AC just wanted to win in Paris, and if he gets this he will be happy.

    But the one thing that AC needs to learn is tactics. JB/LA can teach him this. And hopefully yesterday's stage was a teachable moment - there was no point in AC's attack, and hopefully in retrospect it will be apparent that he has much to learn.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Jurgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericy View Post
    But the one thing that AC needs to learn is tactics. JB/LA can teach him this. And hopefully yesterday's stage was a teachable moment - there was no point in AC's attack, and hopefully in retrospect it will be apparent that he has much to learn.
    Maybe... or maybe Contador will be more willing to listen to someone who's 1000% dedicated to ensuring he finishes at top of the podium.

    A great team can clearly vault a good rider to the podium. (Like CSC and Sastre last year. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Bruyneel/Armstrong accomplish something similar next year.) But Contador is a great rider who hasn't benefited from all of Astana's resources. Would a new team really hurt him that much?

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    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenisMenchov View Post
    Yah, that's obvious, and it's too bad as well, because Contador could of probably beaten Lance's seven in a row record if he could of stayed with Bruyneel. Now he probably will only win about four TDFS or so. We all know Kloden and Levi are going to follow Lance, and if anything, Kloden could be poised to beat Contador next year, if Lance doesn't.

    And which team do you think is going to have the most resources? Probably Lance's team.
    And just how old will Kloden be next year? Try 35. Been a while since a 35 year old won the TDF. I don't think anyone has won their first TDF at that age.

    The other 4 in the top 6 are all young and expected to improve with age. Kloden and Armstrong are just expected to get older and lose at least a little bit each year.

  18. #18
    Senior Member oldbobcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurgen View Post
    Maybe... or maybe Contador will be more willing to listen to someone who's 1000% dedicated to ensuring he finishes at top of the podium.
    I think the clash is a bit more visceral than that. Cycle Sport's pre-Tour profile described Armstrong's manner with the press as silent glowering at those who disagree with him, friendly but condescending smiles to those who do. Either way, it doesn't require too much imagination to see that Armstrong doesn't show much respect to other people's opinions. Maybe he has a small circle of close friends but he has a much larger circle of sycophants.

    I think this rubs Contador the wrong way. It certainly rubs me the wrong way, but I don't have to work with Armstrong. Understanding Armstrong's incipient alpha-dog behavior gives me some appreciation for the diplomacy Johan Bruyneel must work in order to get these two to work together.

    Contador doesn't see himself as an alpha-dog--he's an outlier, a wild child, a Gilgamesh sort of character, the kind many Americans have little sympathy for unless they start large computer companies in their garages. To act like Armstrong's protege is just not his thing, just as riding like Armstrong is not his thing. And Armstrong's alpha-dog has trouble working with that.

    Contador would be a lot happier in a more traditional, perhaps even authoritarian, team model because I believe he respects tradition.

    He might even be happier riding under the open-ended, intellectual, consensus-based style of Vaughters' Garmin team, but the initial effect might be disorienting. If his career survives, I can see Contador growing into a true team leader, but a more intellectually and emotionally generous one than Armstrong.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Jurgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
    I think the clash is a bit more visceral than that. Cycle Sport's pre-Tour profile described Armstrong's manner with the press as silent glowering at those who disagree with him, friendly but condescending smiles to those who do. Either way, it doesn't require too much imagination to see that Armstrong doesn't show much respect to other people's opinions. Maybe he has a small circle of close friends but he has a much larger circle of sycophants.

    I think this rubs Contador the wrong way. It certainly rubs me the wrong way, but I don't have to work with Armstrong. Understanding Armstrong's incipient alpha-dog behavior gives me some appreciation for the diplomacy Johan Bruyneel must work in order to get these two to work together.

    Contador doesn't see himself as an alpha-dog--he's an outlier, a wild child, a Gilgamesh sort of character, the kind many Americans have little sympathy for unless they start large computer companies in their garages. To act like Armstrong's protege is just not his thing, just as riding like Armstrong is not his thing. And Armstrong's alpha-dog has trouble working with that.

    Contador would be a lot happier in a more traditional, perhaps even authoritarian, team model because I believe he respects tradition.

    He might even be happier riding under the open-ended, intellectual, consensus-based style of Vaughters' Garmin team, but the initial effect might be disorienting. If his career survives, I can see Contador growing into a true team leader, but a more intellectually and emotionally generous one than Armstrong.
    That might be the most generous thing I've ever read about the young Spaniard.

    What a nice thing to hope for--and I hope you're right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I'm no Contador fan, but, I'm a little disappointed by this. As has already been pointed out, Aberto will be hard pressed to find a team that will be able to offer the sort of depth, experience and financial backing that LA/JB will likely have. If he were to find a way to work with them, he could actually be considered as a potential breaker of Lance's record or at least going 5+. Oh well, as much as I would have liked to see him stay with them, it doesn't sound like it's going to happen.

    One question though: Doesn't he still have one year under contract to Johan's company? What if Johan won't release him? It would be a shame to see him excluded from next years tour.
    In everything I have read, his contract is with Astana. Not Bruyneel. As manager of the team, he could make certain decisions such as perhaps releasing a rider from a contract or signing a rider. So, Contador is stuck with Astana (and apparently Vino) through 2010 unless he finds a way out. Doubtful that Astana will be attending any ASO races (no TDF) next year if Vino comes back. Perhaps not the Giro either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericy View Post
    People are speculating that AC won't go with JB/LA, but I don't think this is certain. AC just wanted to win in Paris, and if he gets this he will be happy.

    But the one thing that AC needs to learn is tactics. JB/LA can teach him this. And hopefully yesterday's stage was a teachable moment - there was no point in AC's attack, and hopefully in retrospect it will be apparent that he has much to learn.
    Interesting. This Astana/LA/JB situation is working out fine for Contador thus far. If Contador really wants to continue winning maybe he can put his personal feelings aside and continue with the group? I mean its been a strong team which certainly has helped him move to the top.
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  22. #22
    Body by Guinness cjbruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurgen View Post
    Maybe... or maybe Contador will be more willing to listen to someone who's 1000% dedicated to ensuring he finishes at top of the podium.

    A great team can clearly vault a good rider to the podium. (Like CSC and Sastre last year. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Bruyneel/Armstrong accomplish something similar next year.) But Contador is a great rider who hasn't benefited from all of Astana's resources. Would a new team really hurt him that much?
    Can you explain why you think that? Every time I read something similar to this it mystifies me. Did he not benefit from the TTT (where even Lance put in some monster pulls...much more than AC). Did he not benefit from the strong Astana riders controlling the head of the peloton and keeping him safe? Did he not benefit from strong climbers leading him over the mountains? Maybe he would still have the tour locked up without Astana but maybe the work they have done for him has kept him fresh and enabled him to put in those fantastic efforts in the ITT and on the mountains.
    Fredo, you're my older brother and I love you...but don't ever take sides, with anyone, against the family again...ever.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Jurgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbruin View Post
    Can you explain why you think that? Every time I read something similar to this it mystifies me. Did he not benefit from the TTT (where even Lance put in some monster pulls...much more than AC). Did he not benefit from the strong Astana riders controlling the head of the peloton and keeping him safe? Did he not benefit from strong climbers leading him over the mountains? Maybe he would still have the tour locked up without Astana but maybe the work they have done for him has kept him fresh and enabled him to put in those fantastic efforts in the ITT and on the mountains.
    Maybe this:

    Contador may have lost a minute on the day, but still remains in overall contention, now sixth at 1:03. He described the rainy day as a typical stage in Paris-Nice. "It was very windy in the end, when the sprinters's teams took over. At that moment we lost the coordination within our team a bit. Without the team's coordination, it is much harder to fight in conditions like these."

    Once Rabobank hit the front Contador was in the fourth group on the road. He knew he had to do something. "I saw I had no teammates. The situation was very difficult, but I saw there was a short steep slope coming up and I accelerated." Contador looked good on the uphill, but closing the gap proved to be hard. He received some help from Christophe Moreau (Agritubel) to reach the group ahead. "This was the only possibility for me to save the race," Contador said.

  24. #24
    Body by Guinness cjbruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurgen View Post
    Maybe this:
    That's your justification? On stage in Paris-Nice over four months ago? Did he say that the team stopped working for him? Sounds more like they got their signals crossed. The squad for that race was: Contador, Dyachenko, Navarro, Paulinho, Popovych, Noval, Schär & Zubeldia...that's a pretty strong team.
    Fredo, you're my older brother and I love you...but don't ever take sides, with anyone, against the family again...ever.

  25. #25
    reductio ad absurdum ericy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveF View Post
    In everything I have read, his contract is with Astana. Not Bruyneel. As manager of the team, he could make certain decisions such as perhaps releasing a rider from a contract or signing a rider. So, Contador is stuck with Astana (and apparently Vino) through 2010 unless he finds a way out. Doubtful that Astana will be attending any ASO races (no TDF) next year if Vino comes back. Perhaps not the Giro either.
    But if he stays with Astana, then he will have to deal with Vino who sees himself as the team leader. I don't know Vino's personality, so I don't know how that would fit. But if LA/JB take the stronger support riders with them, then Astana could be left with a relatively weak team..

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