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Old 07-31-09, 02:06 AM   #1
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Kloeden's reaction to Stage 17 of TDF

I realize this is a late question, but I'm brand new to this forum. After Stage 17 of the TDF, AC was being slammed for leaving Andreas Kloeden behind to attack the Schleck brothers. From what I've read on other websites and in the press, there are two definite camps on this. The LA supporters all say that AC was being a bad teammate and costing Astana a podium sweep. LA even Twittered about it. The AC supporters say that he was simply trying to protect his lead and prevent the Schlecks from putting time on him. I heard that AC apologized to Kloeden afterward. From what I saw on Eurosport, it appeared that AC was talking to Kloeden before he attacked and that Kloeden didn't have the legs to go with AC.

The one person I haven't heard from on this issue is Kloeden. What was his reaction to what happened in Stage 17? It would have been interesting (to me at least) to hear what Kloeden had to say. Does anybody know? It would be nice to know the real story, which probably lies somewhere between what the AC and LA camps have been saying.
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Old 07-31-09, 06:25 AM   #2
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Kloden is a reserved dude. He didn't say anything. Bruyneel wasn't pleased however, but he is firmly in the LA camp.
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Old 07-31-09, 06:26 AM   #3
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Would be interesting to hear from either the Schlecks or Bjarne Riis to find out if they would have attacked again if AC hadn't.
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Old 07-31-09, 07:01 AM   #4
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I'd also like to know what was said between AC and the Schelcks on the way to the finish line.
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Old 07-31-09, 09:58 AM   #5
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Kloden is a professional unlike the other two squabbling nut jobs.

Richard
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Old 07-31-09, 10:06 AM   #6
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Kloden is a professional unlike the other two squabbling nut jobs.

Richard
This.

He's a quiet guy, Kloden, which makes him a poor fit for a team leader, but an excellent team mate.
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Old 07-31-09, 11:11 AM   #7
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Kloden probably won't say anything until he signs a contract for next season. No sense in burning any bridges until you know who will be signing your paychecks.
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Old 07-31-09, 11:15 AM   #8
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Kloden probably won't say anything until he signs a contract for next season. No sense in burning any bridges until you know who will be signing your paychecks.
And then he still won't say anything.
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Old 08-01-09, 01:49 AM   #9
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I realize this is a late question, but I'm brand new to this forum. After Stage 17 of the TDF, AC was being slammed for leaving Andreas Kloeden behind to attack the Schleck brothers. From what I've read on other websites and in the press, there are two definite camps on this. The LA supporters all say that AC was being a bad teammate and costing Astana a podium sweep. LA even Twittered about it. The AC supporters say that he was simply trying to protect his lead and prevent the Schlecks from putting time on him. I heard that AC apologized to Kloeden afterward. From what I saw on Eurosport, it appeared that AC was talking to Kloeden before he attacked and that Kloeden didn't have the legs to go with AC.

The one person I haven't heard from on this issue is Kloeden. What was his reaction to what happened in Stage 17? It would have been interesting (to me at least) to hear what Kloeden had to say. Does anybody know? It would be nice to know the real story, which probably lies somewhere between what the AC and LA camps have been saying.
He was trying to put time on the Schlecks, something he didn't need do given his lead. Contador was a better time trialist than the Schlecks, so there was no need for Contador to put time on them in the mountains. By attacking, the potential existed for breaking up the lead group existed. That is what happenned when Kloeden couldn't match the acceleration. His best course would have been to stay on the Schlecks tail, cover their attacks and let them do the work ortherwise. By isolating himself from his teamate, a mechanical problem would have meant he would have needed to try and minimize lost time on the Schlecks riding solo after resolution-Kloeden would have been invaluable to Contador in working a 2 man draft-look at how much time Lance and Kloeden lost to the Schlecks working alone on the latter part of that stage-about 2 minutes. Had the isolated Contador had a flat, Andy would have been right there with Contador on GC.




Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4.
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Old 08-01-09, 11:50 AM   #10
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Good answer.
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Old 08-01-09, 12:23 PM   #11
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Would be interesting to hear from either the Schlecks or Bjarne Riis to find out if they would have attacked again if AC hadn't.

That would certainley clear alot of things up, IMO they were done attacking.
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Old 08-01-09, 01:59 PM   #12
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He was trying to put time on the Schlecks, something he didn't need do given his lead. Contador was a better time trialist than the Schlecks, so there was no need for Contador to put time on them in the mountains. By attacking, the potential existed for breaking up the lead group existed. That is what happenned when Kloeden couldn't match the acceleration. His best course would have been to stay on the Schlecks tail, cover their attacks and let them do the work ortherwise. By isolating himself from his teamate, a mechanical problem would have meant he would have needed to try and minimize lost time on the Schlecks riding solo after resolution-Kloeden would have been invaluable to Contador in working a 2 man draft-look at how much time Lance and Kloeden lost to the Schlecks working alone on the latter part of that stage-about 2 minutes. Had the isolated Contador had a flat, Andy would have been right there with Contador on GC.




Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4.
I can't believe I'm getting back into this.

Kloden would not have been on the podium. Andy would have started attacking the 2nd place position. Kloden clearly could not keep up with AS in the mountains. Kloden was riding at the limit when AC attacked. He didn't just keep up, he fell out the back. Lance and Niboli caught him on the descent and then passed him. That's the sign of a rider who was done. Any attack was going to break him at that point. We don't know if it would have been the Schlecks or not. But the way they had been riding, its not out of the question that they wouldn't have given it another go.

The podium was filled by the three strongest riders over 3 weeks of racing. Kloden was in 4th overall behind LA and Wiggins after stage 16. That one stage was not the difference between Kloden finishing 2nd and 6th. That's complete nonsense. You can't consistently get dropped on big defining climbs in the TdF and finish on the podium. I don't care who's doing the attacking. After watching 21 stages, it was clear that the top 3 most consistent strong riders ended up on the podium. Kloden was obviously not one of them.

What I would like to hear from Kloden is whether or not Contador told him that he was going to attack and asked him if he was okay. And if Kloden's reply was "I'm good, go for it" like AC claimed after the stage. That would tell us quite a bit.

And as another poster said, what would the Saxo boys had done if AC didn't attack them back. One thing that can be said about AC's attack, it probably dashed anymore thoughts of the Schleck boys from going after again that day. Would they have attacked if AC didn't? That's the question, because they would unhitched Kloden anyways.

But Kloden hasn't said anything and probably won't. Probably a good thing. Let it die where it is.
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Old 08-01-09, 02:13 PM   #13
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No way Kloden would have finished ahead of A. Schleck. How could he have made the podium? He couldn't even keep up with F. Schleck. Of course Andy would have pushed the pace if AC hadn't. Even if he couldn't gain time on Contador, he needed to drop Kloden, Wiggins, and Armstrong to gain second place in GC.
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Old 08-01-09, 02:38 PM   #14
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Kloden wasnt riding for 2nd at that point...he was riding for 3rd. If AC doesnt push and the Schlecks dont attack...Astana goes 1,2,3 into the TT. Armstrong puts more time into Andy in the TT and sticks close enough on stage 20 to take 2nd. Kloden then battles it out with the rest of the contenders for 3rd.
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Old 08-01-09, 02:49 PM   #15
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Kloden wasnt riding for 2nd at that point...he was riding for 3rd. If AC doesnt push and the Schlecks dont attack...Astana goes 1,2,3 into the TT. Armstrong puts more time into Andy in the TT and sticks close enough on stage 20 to take 2nd. Kloden then battles it out with the rest of the contenders for 3rd.
That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd. Which in turn pushes Lance to 3rd. The reality of it is that Andy Schleck's advantage in the mountains outweighed his difficiency in the TT vs Armstrong and Kloden. AS knows those guys have the advantage in the TT. So he would keep attacking in the mountains. And that went for Frank as well. So the idea of Frank and Andy letting off the attacks is high speculation. That was their greatest strength. So they were going to exploit it to the end.

At Ventoux, Frank had finally given all that he could. Lance still had something in the tank. That's why he was on the podium. Kloden got dropped (again) and couldn't even stay ahead of Wiggins. Andy stopped attacking because he couldn't dump AC and Frank was done. No way do Lance and Kloden keep AS out of second. Neither one of the could hang with him on the big climbs. The only rider that could out climb or even stay with Andy Schleck was Alberto Contador. All of the other Astana guys consistently got dropped.

Astana sweeping the podium was a pipe dream. Especially once Levi went down.
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Old 08-01-09, 03:02 PM   #16
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That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd. Which in turn pushes Lance to 3rd. The reality of it is that Andy Schleck's advantage in the mountains outweighed his difficiency in the TT vs Armstrong and Kloden. AS knows those guys have the advantage in the TT. So he would keep attacking in the mountains. And that went for Frank as well. So the idea of Frank and Andy letting off the attacks is high speculation. That was their greatest strength. So they were going to exploit it to the end.

At Ventoux, Frank had finally given all that he could. Lance still had something in the tank. That's why he was on the podium. Kloden got dropped (again) and couldn't even stay ahead of Wiggins. Andy stopped attacking because he couldn't dump AC and Frank was done. No way do Lance and Kloden keep AS out of second. Neither one of the could hang with him on the big climbs. The only rider that could out climb or even stay with Andy Schleck was Alberto Contador. All of the other Astana guys consistently got dropped.

Astana sweeping the podium was a pipe dream. Especially once Levi went down.
It's all speculation. No one knew AS would only lose 15 seconds to LA in the TT the next day. Most thought he would lose much more. Second place was no way a lock for AS. What's done is done now. AC attacked and Kloden was dropped. Poor team tactics but it worked for AC and the Schlecks.
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Old 08-01-09, 03:34 PM   #17
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It's all speculation. No one knew AS would only lose 15 seconds to LA in the TT the next day. Most thought he would lose much more. Second place was no way a lock for AS. What's done is done now. AC attacked and Kloden was dropped. Poor team tactics but it worked for AC and the Schlecks.
It worked out for Astana as well. 1st and 3rd. Most would not have bet Lance could have pulled 3rd going. AS was clearly the dominant rider outside of AC. The Astana "team" tactics were highly suspect and overly ambitious. Especially after their second strongest rider went down. At that point of the race, they should have been more concerned with building the leaders lead as opposed to trying to fill podium spots with domestiques. Going into that stage, AC didn't have an insurmountable lead. Less than 3 minutes to Andy Schleck, a great climber, and less than 2 minutes to Wiggins, a very good time trialer. The race was hardly locked up at that point and there was a lot of racing to go. To have a team strategy of trying to move up support riders in the standings before the yellow jersey is locked up was foolish.
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Old 08-01-09, 03:41 PM   #18
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That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd. Which in turn pushes Lance to 3rd. The reality of it is that Andy Schleck's advantage in the mountains outweighed his difficiency in the TT vs Armstrong and Kloden. AS knows those guys have the advantage in the TT. So he would keep attacking in the mountains.
The point is not what he would have done after 17 but what they had done on 17. I watched the stge 3 times. AS and FS had hammered all day. They had given AC a bunch of 1-2 punches and he didnt even wobble. It was 2k to the summit. IMO the schlecks were done, they had hammered at AC and not made a dent. It was time for them to conserve some energy for the next 3 stages. Thats when AC kicks and drops Kloden. Now AS and FS see an opportunity to gain time on Kloden and hammer to the finish, in the process dropping kloden to 5th and Armstrong to 4th.
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Old 08-01-09, 04:05 PM   #19
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The point is not what he would have done after 17 but what they had done on 17. I watched the stge 3 times. AS and FS had hammered all day. They had given AC a bunch of 1-2 punches and he didnt even wobble. It was 2k to the summit. IMO the schlecks were done, they had hammered at AC and not made a dent. It was time for them to conserve some energy for the next 3 stages. Thats when AC kicks and drops Kloden. Now AS and FS see an opportunity to gain time on Kloden and hammer to the finish, in the process dropping kloden to 5th and Armstrong to 4th.
Yes, this is true. However, Kloden has sat on wheels the whole day. He looked fresh as a daisy. AC said that told Kloden that he wanted to attack and asked if he was okay. According to AC, Kloden said he was good and was okay with it. AC attacks, Kloden gets shot out the back. If you look at it from AC's point, AC and Kloden go with the Schlecks being gassed. AC and Kloden reach the summit first and hold on during the descent. AC and Kloden both put time on the Schlecks. Not that crazy of a strategy.

That's why I'm curious as to what Kloden has to say about whether or not AC said that to him and his response. And if what AC said is true, how does Kloden explain getting dropped like that. That's fairly significant. But he's saying nothing.
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Old 08-01-09, 04:10 PM   #20
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That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd.
The Schleck's may have attacked, but I don't think they would have. Although in hindsight Kloden was obviously near his limit, he looked like he was stronger than either of the Schlecks. I know if I was in a similar situation as the Schleck's I would just want to focus on putting time into Wiggins/Armstrong by riding a steady pace; they had to be expecting Kloden to go for the stage win after what happened in 2004.
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Old 08-01-09, 04:27 PM   #21
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Yes, this is true. However, Kloden has sat on wheels the whole day. He looked fresh as a daisy. AC said that told Kloden that he wanted to attack and asked if he was okay. According to AC, Kloden said he was good and was okay with it. AC attacks, Kloden gets shot out the back. If you look at it from AC's point, AC and Kloden go with the Schlecks being gassed. AC and Kloden reach the summit first and hold on during the descent. AC and Kloden both put time on the Schlecks. Not that crazy of a strategy.

That's why I'm curious as to what Kloden has to say about whether or not AC said that to him and his response. And if what AC said is true, how does Kloden explain getting dropped like that. That's fairly significant. But he's saying nothing.
Agreed as well. Ive heard AC say that Kloden said he was good to go as well. What bewilders me is why not let Kloden do the attacking if thats the case. He has the most to gain from the attack and thus he should be the one to go, then AC follows and if it works you drop the brothers AND AC has a partner god forbid he has a mechanical or something wierd. I cant imagine AC thought Kloden could match him on the gas uphill. Only person who had even come close was AS. So that brings me back to WHY would AC do the launch and not Kloden??
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Old 08-01-09, 05:19 PM   #22
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I can't believe I'm getting back into this.

Kloden would not have been on the podium.
Read more closely. meb did not say that Kloden would have been on the podium. He said "3 of the top 4", apparently conceding 2nd to AS.
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Old 08-01-09, 10:56 PM   #23
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Read more closely. meb did not say that Kloden would have been on the podium. He said "3 of the top 4", apparently conceding 2nd to AS.
This is what he said "Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4. "
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Old 08-01-09, 11:04 PM   #24
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Agreed as well. Ive heard AC say that Kloden said he was good to go as well. What bewilders me is why not let Kloden do the attacking if thats the case. He has the most to gain from the attack and thus he should be the one to go, then AC follows and if it works you drop the brothers AND AC has a partner god forbid he has a mechanical or something wierd. I cant imagine AC thought Kloden could match him on the gas uphill. Only person who had even come close was AS. So that brings me back to WHY would AC do the launch and not Kloden??
Yep. That is a valid point. Its like AC doesn't realize that when he attacks noboby can go with him. I wouldn't be surprised if AC thought that Kloden was just going to "go" with him when attacked. It was like AC said to Kloden, "okay, you're good. Let's go." Then boom, AC takes off. Gets up the rode a bit and looks back (probably with JB screaming in his ear) and sees Kloden out the back. Then he's like, "crap." Backs off, but the damage has been done.
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Old 08-02-09, 06:41 AM   #25
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He was trying to put time on the Schlecks, something he didn't need do given his lead. Contador was a better time trialist than the Schlecks, so there was no need for Contador to put time on them in the mountains. By attacking, the potential existed for breaking up the lead group existed. That is what happenned when Kloeden couldn't match the acceleration. His best course would have been to stay on the Schlecks tail, cover their attacks and let them do the work ortherwise. By isolating himself from his teamate, a mechanical problem would have meant he would have needed to try and minimize lost time on the Schlecks riding solo after resolution-Kloeden would have been invaluable to Contador in working a 2 man draft-look at how much time Lance and Kloeden lost to the Schlecks working alone on the latter part of that stage-about 2 minutes. Had the isolated Contador had a flat, Andy would have been right there with Contador on GC.




Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4.
Yes, and Contador would've then let Kloden have the stage win instead of Frank. The mark of a team leader.

I really think Contador bought into all the hype too much and it made him insecure. He's made mental lapses before but the media hype made things worse.

Next year, he'll be on a team built for him with no Lance, Levi, Kloden around. Only domestiques. And no Johan.
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