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  1. #1
    Senior Member Boomer's Avatar
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    Hincappie reeled in???

    OK, I understand just the basics about racing, but not much more. I read an article about the race today and the breakaway by Voeckler (who now has the yellow jersey) and several other riders. USPS tried to stay with the break with Hincappie but the T-mobile team kept reeling him back in.

    1) What do they mean by "reeling" him back in? If Hincappie took off after the break, how can T-mobile slow him down?
    2) What was the purpose of Hincappie going with the break while the rest of USPS remained with the peloton?

    Thanks for any explanation.
    It's only a flesh wound

  2. #2
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Reeling him back in simply means that everytime Hincappie made a break for it T-Mobile chased him down. There's no sense blasting down the road when you're dragging your competition with you.

    If he'd been in a break that made it to the finish, Hincapie could have gained enough seconds to earn the yellow jersey. Even if the break didn't make it to the finish, he could have gained enough bonus seconds at the intermediate sprints to take the jersey.
    i may have overreacted

  3. #3
    Senior Member Stubacca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    If he'd been in a break that made it to the finish, Hincapie could have gained enough seconds to earn the yellow jersey. Even if the break didn't make it to the finish, he could have gained enough bonus seconds at the intermediate sprints to take the jersey.
    If the break had started to get away too much, could he also have tried to hold up their speed a bit? Or is that not the done thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stubacca
    If the break had started to get away too much, could he also have tried to hold up their speed a bit? Or is that not the done thing?
    Yes, a team will often try to get a rider in a breakaway for the purpose of slowing them down. One guy not pulling, will really disrupt a small paceline. If you'll note in todays breakaway, all 5 of the riders worked together until it was clear the victory was one of theirs, at which time they started attacking each other.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Boomer's Avatar
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    OK, I got the concept. Hincappie tried to go with the break away to reel them back in. But at the same time, T-mobile attached themselves to Hincappie to reel him back. WOW what a mind game. Thanks for the explanation.
    It's only a flesh wound

  6. #6
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    No, Hincapie likely went with the break in an attempt to gain the yellow jersey. Postal was trying to get him in a break for that reason. Armstrong and crew have no reason to care if four riders with no hope of a GC win take off down the road. If George had been in that winning break there's no reason to believe that he would not have worked with them. T-Mobile however for some reason didn't want George in yellow.
    i may have overreacted

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    No, Hincapie likely went with the break in an attempt to gain the yellow jersey. Postal was trying to get him in a break for that reason. Armstrong and crew have no reason to care if four riders with no hope of a GC win take off down the road. If George had been in that winning break there's no reason to believe that he would not have worked with them. T-Mobile however for some reason didn't want George in yellow.

    Or a simpler reason - Hincapie is a strong rider on the flater regions, using him to bridge the gab with the breakaway is a lot easier than doing it yourself. Might as well tag along if he wants to join the break.
    "The heights by great men reached and kept were not attained by sudden flight But they, while their companions slept, were toiling upward in the night." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

  8. #8
    Senior Member Boomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    No, Hincapie likely went with the break in an attempt to gain the yellow jersey. Postal was trying to get him in a break for that reason. Armstrong and crew have no reason to care if four riders with no hope of a GC win take off down the road. If George had been in that winning break there's no reason to believe that he would not have worked with them. T-Mobile however for some reason didn't want George in yellow.
    I thought the entire USPS team was working together to get LA the Tour win. If this assumption is correct, then what would the team gain by having Hincappie get the YJ at this stage?
    It's only a flesh wound

  9. #9
    Sneaky Slow pgreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomer
    I thought the entire USPS team was working together to get LA the Tour win. If this assumption is correct, then what would the team gain by having Hincappie get the YJ at this stage?
    i'm guessing george getting in the early break was just a lark. they probably decided that with all the work he's done the past coupla stages (and that is some MONSTROUS work, btw. and being in greenville, i'm not biased. i promise ), if he could get away with it it might be worth a try. maybe collect some intermediate bonuses without expending too much effort. but once it was clear it wasn't going to happen, he pulls back. would've been a good reward for georgie, but he's not in it for personal rewards. yet another reason he's the man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    No, Hincapie likely went with the break in an attempt to gain the yellow jersey. Postal was trying to get him in a break for that reason. Armstrong and crew have no reason to care if four riders with no hope of a GC win take off down the road. If George had been in that winning break there's no reason to believe that he would not have worked with them. T-Mobile however for some reason didn't want George in yellow.

    G'day,

    sorry Laggard, gotta disagree with this view. There absolutely no way that the 'posties' were gunna try & put their strongest rider in a break, when the tour still has 2 1/2 weeks to go. Presumably this is why George didn't end up in the break, he certainly has the ability & the strength to have 'stuck it' if he really wanted. No, lance is conserving the troops to work for him, which is what they get paid for. T. mobile were never going to let anyone as high on GC as george, go anywa. Jan is smart enough to know what was going on, but team tactics will never consciously allow someone who is only 10sec down on GC, to go in a break.

    cheers,

    Hitchy

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    Hincapie isn't really a mountain man, so they might as well use him when they can on the flats.

    USPS played a similar card early in the Vuelta last year, with Heras and Rubiera.

  12. #12
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitchy
    G'day,
    sorry Laggard, gotta disagree with this view. There absolutely no way that the 'posties' were gunna try & put their strongest rider in a break, when the tour still has 2 1/2 weeks to go. Presumably this is why George didn't end up in the break, he certainly has the ability & the strength to have 'stuck it' if he really wanted. No, lance is conserving the troops to work for him, which is what they get paid for. T. mobile were never going to let anyone as high on GC as george, go anywa. Jan is smart enough to know what was going on, but team tactics will never consciously allow someone who is only 10sec down on GC, to go in a break.
    "The team was great today. Johan just kept telling them that they don't have to work for another week. They're probably happy to hear that...we tried to get George in the break today but T-Mobile kept chasing him down."

    Armstrong

    "Today, our strategy was to either keep the jersey with someone who could go in the break or let it go - George Hincapie tried a few times but he was chased then so we just decided to let a break go.

    Bruyneel
    i may have overreacted

  13. #13
    Elitist Jackass Smoothie104's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomer
    WOW what a mind game. Thanks for the explanation.
    You have just cracked the surface my friend, it is a rolling chess match, a game of F*cky F*cky, and a street fight all rolled into one.


    Sticking George in the break isn't going to kill him. By rights he wouldn't be expected to work, since his team captain has the jersey. But I'm sure he would have worked enough to keep the break clear. He could have also tried to get enough bonus seconds at the intermediate sprints, to be the yellow jersey on the road, and then sit up and wait for the peleton. Had that worked, Geoge gets his day in yellow, which he deserves for sure, He didn't burn too much energy, postal rides the same pace they did today, and the next day can choose not to defend it, which is where they are today anyways.

    T Mobile was marking all the postals, due to the horrible cross winds and crashes. If George is allowed to go up the road, and the cross winds or a crash splits the peleton, Lance could bridge across the gap, and have a real workhorse waiting for him up the road. Kelme and Once used to do this in the Mountains all the time. They'd send a guy on a flyer an hour or so before the main climb. He would slow down and recover a bit when the leaders were getting close, then the team leader would attack, and all of a sudden, he's got a team mate already up there to pull him along.

    Saeco did this in the Giro, they had Mazzolini up the road on a suicide move. Cunego caught up to him in the valley before the final climb. Mazzolini had been waiting for him and drilled it along the valley floor, with Cunego on his wheel. Opening up the gap Cunego had made even farther. At the base of the climb, Mazzonlini moves over, slaps Cunego on the back to say "there you go boy, now its up to you" Cunego, fresh from the free ride along the valley floor, punches it up the climb and takes the stage, and time over all the favorites.

    Or maybe it was simple team orders to mark anyone above Ullrich on the GC.
    Last edited by Smoothie104; 07-08-04 at 10:34 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    "The team was great today. Johan just kept telling them that they don't have to work for another week. They're probably happy to hear that...we tried to get George in the break today but T-Mobile kept chasing him down."

    Armstrong

    "Today, our strategy was to either keep the jersey with someone who could go in the break or let it go - George Hincapie tried a few times but he was chased then so we just decided to let a break go.

    Bruyneel
    g'day,

    ahh...strategic editing......but this lot only proves my point...sure they had a bit of a dig, hoping that it wasn't gunna get a response...but as soon as it did, did they persist...nah. Jan was never gunna let George go at only 10secs down on GC.....everyone in the world knew that....they also knew that UPS wasn't gunna try & stick it, beyond a cursory shot.....& thats exactly what happened. They abandoned trying to get George 'away' to conserve him for the next 2 weeks...stupid to do anything else....by the way, I've forgotten what we were arguing about & I'm to lazy to scroll back ta see!,but I had this argument the other day on the 'George in yellow' thread (can't be bothered looking for the link) & how did it turn out? (says Hitchy, childishly poking his tongue out!)

    cheers,

    Hitchy

  15. #15
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    The fact remains that Postal would have had no problem with George in a break. The reason it didn't work is not because it would have tired him out but because T-Mobile wouldn't let it happen. Could they have kept trying? Sure. But you have to give up sometime.

    Strategic editing? On my part? I quoted it exactly as cycling news.com did. Word for word. Lance in an interview yesterday also said that they tried to get George in a break.

    The real questions is why T-Mobile would care. They know as well as we do that George will drop like a stone when things get steep.
    i may have overreacted

  16. #16
    Bring the tech Ajay213's Avatar
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    I've forgotten what we were arguing about & I'm to lazy to scroll back ta see!,but I had this argument the other day on the 'George in yellow' thread (can't be bothered looking for the link) & how did it turn out? (says Hitchy, childishly poking his tongue out!)
    You stated that USPS would not send a rider up the road.

    USPS sent a rider up the road.

    The final result is that the USPS rider wasn't allowed to make a break and was reeled in, but that doesn't change the fact that USPS were more than happy with trying to get George in the break.


    The real questions is why T-Mobile would care. They know as well as we do that George will drop like a stone when things get steep.
    That's the real question, and quite baffling. I could understand it if the USPS rider were one of the better climbers/overall riders like Azevedo, but George doesn't really present much of a long term threat to the overall GC. If I were USPS I'd be taking note of that, maybe they are going to respond to any and all USPS attacks, even if it's a non-contender rider.

    Andrew

  17. #17
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Smoothie may have answered the question as to why T-Mobile would care.
    i may have overreacted

  18. #18
    Just ride. roadbuzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamawe
    Yes, a team will often try to get a rider in a breakaway for the purpose of slowing them down.
    I'm not sure how *team* finishes are scored, but alternatively, isn't another reason for putting a team member in a break so that you're team (as opposed to GC rider) won't lose time, relative to the break (provided it succeeds)?

  19. #19
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Sometimes teams try to get riders in breaks simply because the break is forming and you might as well have a team rider in it.
    i may have overreacted

  20. #20
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    Good thread!
    2004 Bianchi Virata

  21. #21
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothie104
    Kelme and Once used to do this in the Mountains all the time. They'd send a guy on a flyer an hour or so before the main climb. He would slow down and recover a bit when the leaders were getting close, then the team leader would attack, and all of a sudden, he's got a team mate already up there to pull him along.
    Postal did that last year during the Vuelta. When it works it's a brilliant move.
    i may have overreacted

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    Postal did that last year during the Vuelta. When it works it's a brilliant move.

    G'day,

    ok...the last word on this thread.....from memory the 'break' went at 15-20 km......according to UPS the 'posties' had already given up trying to put George in the break cos jan kept chasing him down. They gave up after 15-20km????.....the supposedly strongest team ever????...give me a break, shows the amount of effort they were prepared to put in to put george in the break...virtually none!......Why would Jan care if George was in the break?......Whilst you guys are right about georges climbing ability....what do UPS do if George puts 10 minutes into Lance & Jan et al.......& lance falls off & breaks his arm?.....interesting scenario!...also no-one 10secs down on GC will be allowed to go......& finally...sheer bloody mindedness....Perhaps Jan is sick of the perception that UPS are so arrogant that THEY will choose who wears yellow?,

    cheers,

    Hitchy

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