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Old 07-14-04, 06:36 AM   #1
only-haley
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vinokourov and t-mobile

I'm so bummed about Vino being out with injury, especially with Ullrich at his fighting weight again. Does anyone else think that Ullrich would have a serious shot at winning this year's Tour if it weren't for Vino's absence? What do you guys think of Botero and Guerini?
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Old 07-14-04, 06:45 AM   #2
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I think Ullrich has a serious shot of winning without Vino.
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Old 07-14-04, 07:05 AM   #3
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Oh yeah- it would have been great to see them working side by side- the big man with his second in command. But Ullrich is a big strong guy in great shape and he'll definitely be a serious contender.

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Old 07-14-04, 07:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Laggard
I think Ullrich has a serious shot of winning without Vino.
Ullrich is the greatest cyclist of all time.
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Old 07-14-04, 07:48 AM   #5
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No, Lance is!
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Old 07-14-04, 07:53 AM   #6
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Ummm, neither of them are. There are many other great ones that came before them, sans the technology these cyclists have today. Not to say these cyclists aren't incredibly good, but the best of all time? I'm actually chuckling when I read the statements.

Well... chuckling and rolling my eyes at the same time while I shake my head.

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Old 07-14-04, 08:17 AM   #7
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what Laggard means (if i may) is that Lance is the best Tour De France rider ever (in his opinion). He and everyone else knows that Lance forsakes many of the other classics to concentrate on the money race.

just like many NBA stars (patrick ewing, malone & stockton, barkley) never won the big one because michael jordan was around in the 90's, ullrich has had the good fortune of racing the TDF in the lance era.

but getting back, ullrich is hurt less with vino's absence because the mountain stages start and he is in good shape. it would have been even more devastating had vino dropped out before the TTT or some of the flat stages. (disclaimer: i am no race expert, its just my opinion based on my limited race expertise)
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Old 07-14-04, 08:25 AM   #8
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Anyone who's ever paid attention to any of my posts knows that I was joking. I think Hollow may have been joking also.

Even if Lance wins six, he's in the top-25 of all time but not the greatest. He's not even the greatest TDF rider of all time.
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Old 07-14-04, 08:27 AM   #9
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Whoops, ok. I don't really pay attention to any one particular person, so I usually can't tell when people are joking unless they do something like this: . You feel me?

It's a relief to see you were just joshin'...

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Old 07-14-04, 08:29 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Koffee Brown
Ummm, neither of them are. There are many other great ones that came before them, sans the technology these cyclists have today. Not to say these cyclists aren't incredibly good, but the best of all time? I'm actually chuckling when I read the statements.

Well... chuckling and rolling my eyes at the same time while I shake my head.

Koffee
Its all personal opinion on 'greatest'.
No facts create the title.
Laugh if you want, but its like laughing at someone for preferring apples over oranges.

I don't know why you guys idolize riders so much. It is obvious that none of you know enough about past and present cycling to properly compare.

One domestique doesn't make or break the race for a leader. Ullrich can win without Vino.
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Old 07-14-04, 08:53 AM   #11
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I think Jan has a better chance without Vino on the squad as there is one less competitor to deal with. Plus you don't want to get into a situation where Vino may be ahead, but only slightly and then have the team, including Jan, be asked to work for him when he doesn't have the best chance for the highest finish in the end.

Andrew
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Old 07-14-04, 08:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
Its all personal opinion on 'greatest'.
No facts create the title.
Laugh if you want, but its like laughing at someone for preferring apples over oranges.

I don't know why you guys idolize riders so much. It is obvious that none of you know enough about past and present cycling to properly compare.
What the hell are you talking about?
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Old 07-14-04, 09:06 AM   #13
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Would everyone keep the noise down please! We are chanting and burning incense in our Eddy Merckx shrine here.
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Old 07-14-04, 09:07 AM   #14
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Who dares to cross swords with THE LAGGARD?!!?
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Old 07-14-04, 09:12 AM   #15
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Who dares to cross swords with THE LAGGARD?!!?
Shut up and go away or I'll use the sword to lop off that thing you call a head.

Brent D is the greatest rider of all time.
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Old 07-14-04, 12:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Laggard
Anyone who's ever paid attention to any of my posts knows that I was joking. I think Hollow may have been joking also.

Even if Lance wins six, he's in the top-25 of all time but not the greatest. He's not even the greatest TDF rider of all time.
Yes, you got my joke. Just a play off of all of yours about LA. My true opinion would be Eddy Merckx best overall. Hard to say for TDF.
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Old 07-14-04, 12:54 PM   #17
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If Lance wins his sixth, he is the best TDF rider ever, Laggard. Period.

He wouldn't be the best cyclist to ride the Tour, but he would be the best Tour rider. Do you see my point?
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Old 07-14-04, 01:16 PM   #18
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I think I see your point. And at the risk of getting into another then verse now argument, I'll throw Merckx's TDF stats at ya:

In '69 he won all three jerseys. He won the points jersey 3 times and the mountain jersey twice. 34 stages and 96 days in yellow.

If you want something more recent, Hinault won both the points and overall in '79.

In terms of total race victories, Lance is the greatest. In terms of sheer domination, stage wins, and jerseys won, Eddy will never be beaten.

And yes, I realize that this is a different era.
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Old 07-14-04, 01:20 PM   #19
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I know Eddy's Tour stats, but despite all the jerseys he won and how young he was when he won his first Tour (and the fact that it was his first Tour), he still "only" won five. If Lance wins six, then it's a fact that he's better.

We'll see in a few weeks though!
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Old 07-14-04, 01:23 PM   #20
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Agreed that Lance will have the most victories and if you base best on total victories, then he is indeed best.

Yes, we will see in two weeks.
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Old 07-14-04, 01:47 PM   #21
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Sorry to interrupt here, but back to the original post
(No, JA is the best Tour rider ever, he is almost god! he said
so himself, just ask Pou Pou).
I think Vino's absence hurts Jan in that they could have
tag team attacked Lance. Lance would have to cover Vino, then
Jan after he diesel'd up to speed. I think that kind of one two punch
is what its going to do to hurt Lance. Similiar to what was being done
to him last year on l'Alpe D'Huez mayo, vino, beloki, hamilton all attacking
in succession.

No, I'm a '9er lets leave out the other 90!

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Old 07-14-04, 02:56 PM   #22
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Well, I could be wrong as I'm light on cycling history, but isn't it harder to win all three jerseys now? Aren't there more specialists, more sprinters and climbers, these days than in Merckx's? Was there a Fassa Bortolo type team in Merckx's day? I don't know, so I'm only asking. Not trolling.
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Old 07-14-04, 03:32 PM   #23
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There were specialists back then as well, but perhaps not as specialized as they are today. That's irrelevent though. Eddy beat everyone at their own game, convincingly. Anyone who says he wasn't the greatest of all time is probably on some kind of drug.
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Old 07-16-04, 05:51 AM   #24
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Now that Matthias Kessler has dropped out after that (ouch ) fence post collision, who in sodding hell is supposed to lead the attack with Ullrich on the mountains? I sure hope they have a trick up their sleeves...Can't they use Cadel Evans now that they've lost a rider?
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Old 07-16-04, 06:40 AM   #25
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Now that Matthias Kessler has dropped out after that (ouch ) fence post collision, who in sodding hell is supposed to lead the attack with Ullrich on the mountains?
Jan has better support than last year. Maybe he can do the climbers version of what McEwen does... just latch on to other teams lead-outs, and ride defensively until the defining opportunities.

The loss of Vino was major, IMO. In addition to being ultra-domestique to Jan, he would've had as much or more podium potential as last year. I think the concerns about Jan's weight will prove to be unfounded... from everything I saw he started the tour in fine form. We may know much more later today!
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