Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26
  1. #1
    insert witty comment here Mr_Christopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Dallas Texas
    My Bikes
    '09 Trek 7.2 FX, mid 90s Trek 820, 1982 Schwinn Super LeTour, Legran Seville, Peugeot UE 18
    Posts
    831
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Helmets, required?

    I'm not a 99er, more like a 2007er...So here is my question, I see older tour photos where guys are not wearing helmets but the more recent photos they all are. Are helmets required?

  2. #2
    snob rogwilco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    1,178
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes, they have to wear helmets. For many years already actually.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    415
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The rules used to vary depending on the type of stage. Now they are required 100% of the time.

  4. #4
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    1954 Hetchins M.O., 1959 Viking Severn Valley, 1970 Raleigh Pro, 1972 Fuji "The Finest", 1974 Raleigh Superbe&Comp, 1976 Raleigh Team Pro, 1994 Trek 830 MTB, 2000 Bob Jackson Arrowhead, Unicycle
    Posts
    13,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    They used to not be required. Then they were required, except for the final climb on uphill finishes. Now, they are required all the time.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  5. #5
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    4,316
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I remember Casartelli's death being the true beginning of the movement to require the wearing of helmets.
    i may have overreacted

  6. #6
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,808
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it is worth pointing out that helmets becoming required went hand in hand with helmets being usefull and having minimal problems. Go back far enough and helmets would actually have been a danger, contributing to overheating and sweat running into riders eyes (Easy to deal with on a social ride, not so easy for a race). As Helmets got the tho point where they did not significantly reduce cooling and actually provided aero advantages they becamse required. These days few pros would go bareheaded (at least under normal conditions) even if allowed to.

    If I recall correctly the NHL changed the rules a while ago allowing players to play without a helmet, few if any play that way. (The years before required helmet use, though at least for a while there was a grandfather clause).

  7. #7
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Mt.Diablo
    Posts
    5,673
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
    I remember Casartelli's death being the true beginning of the movement to require the wearing of helmets.
    Kivilev's death was 2003 and Casartelli's death was 1995 (edited, thanks Laggard); those were the incidents that brought about the most recent version of the helmet rules.

    Decent helmets started appearing about 1985.

    Mandatory non-hairnet helmets in pro events had been tried several times before, although it was generally a race-specific or country-specific regulation; frequently encountered with scorn and sometimes protests.

    The Belgians required hairnets for all races when most of the rest of Europe did not so you'll see lots of old photos of de Ronde where everyone is wearing hairnets.

    Last edited by DiabloScott; 09-16-09 at 03:08 PM.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

  8. #8
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    4,316
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Casartelli was '95.
    i may have overreacted

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    5,194
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    If I recall correctly the NHL changed the rules a while ago allowing players to play without a helmet, few if any play that way. (The years before required helmet use, though at least for a while there was a grandfather clause).
    You don't (recall correctly). Helmets are mandatory in all levels of organized ice hockey.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,808
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    You don't (recall correctly). Helmets are mandatory in all levels of organized ice hockey.
    Nope I do recall correctly, but you are also correct. 78-79 was the manditory Helmet rule. In 1992 they reversed the rule. I can not find any reference to when they reintroduced it. The current rules seem to require a helmet. (Only reason I say seem to is that the 92 reversal required a waview to be signed by the player. I've seen enough burried rules elsewhere to know there could be one in this case.)

    Links:

    http://www.tmlfever.com/TheGame.html

    http://www.google.com/search?q=NHL+H...itle&resnum=11

    Along the way I found the last player to play helmetless was Craig MacTavish in 95-96. I'm thinking he may already have been the only one in 92 and that at that time no players went helmetless for more than a shift or 2 if that.

    Major trivia research points to anyone who can find the reinstution of the helmet requirement in the NHL.

  11. #11
    Surf Bum
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacifica, CA
    My Bikes
    Vintage Trek, Vintage Diamond Back Mountain Bike, Bianchi Axis CrossBike
    Posts
    2,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
    I remember Casartelli's death being the true beginning of the movement to require the wearing of helmets.
    A lot of people wear helmets because they want protection in high speed falls such as in racing situations, but because of the flimsy materials bike helmets are made out of, the protection at speed is very, very minimal. Bike helmets are designed to provide protection falling from a top a bicycle, or about a 12mph impact. That is the test they have to pass. But since collision energy varies with the square of speed, this means that if one were to crash at 30mph, the helmet would only reduce this impact energy to the same level as crashing without the helmet at 27.5mph. In other words, slowing down from 30 to 27 is providing you more safety benefit than wearing a helmet. (and if the helmet cracks in the crash, it is even less effective even though people mistakenly say things like "my helmet cracked and that would have been my head." if your helmet cracked, it didn't do you much good at all.)

    The point? Mandating helmet usage for high speed cycling is kind of silly. The helmet is almost totally useless at those impact speeds and its popularity is a triumph of marketing by helmet companies! Helmets are much more useful for people who ride slow since they can mitigate almost all the energy of a tipping-over-while-stopped type crash.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    5,194
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Major trivia research points to anyone who can find the reinstution of the helmet requirement in the NHL.
    Looks like they allowed them to go helmetless from '92 to '96. I don't recall anyone other than those who were grandfathered not wearing helmets. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...20/2/index.htm

  13. #13
    Ol' Reliable formerbrit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Not where you'd think
    My Bikes
    Dolan DF3, Fondriest TF1
    Posts
    108
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What is this "hockey"?
    "I have started many stories about bicycle racing but have never written one that is as good as the races are both on the indoor and outdoor tracks and on the roads."
    -Ernest Hemingway, A Moveable Feast

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    210
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Nope I do recall correctly, but you are also correct. 78-79 was the manditory Helmet rule. In 1992 they reversed the rule. I can not find any reference to when they reintroduced it. The current rules seem to require a helmet. (Only reason I say seem to is that the 92 reversal required a waview to be signed by the player. I've seen enough burried rules elsewhere to know there could be one in this case.)

    Links:

    http://www.tmlfever.com/TheGame.html

    http://www.google.com/search?q=NHL+H...itle&resnum=11

    Along the way I found the last player to play helmetless was Craig MacTavish in 95-96. I'm thinking he may already have been the only one in 92 and that at that time no players went helmetless for more than a shift or 2 if that.

    Major trivia research points to anyone who can find the reinstution of the helmet requirement in the NHL.
    The helmet rule was put in place in 78-79 and any players playing without one were allowed to continue until they retired or decided to wear one. Nobody else has ever been allowed to play without a helmet since then except when it is knocked off during play. The rule has been in place since then and has never been reversed.

  15. #15
    raodmaster shaman
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    G-ville
    Posts
    1,431
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pacificaslim View Post
    A lot of people wear helmets because they want protection in high speed falls such as in racing situations, but because of the flimsy materials bike helmets are made out of, the protection at speed is very, very minimal. Bike helmets are designed to provide protection falling from a top a bicycle, or about a 12mph impact. That is the test they have to pass. But since collision energy varies with the square of speed, this means that if one were to crash at 30mph, the helmet would only reduce this impact energy to the same level as crashing without the helmet at 27.5mph. In other words, slowing down from 30 to 27 is providing you more safety benefit than wearing a helmet. (and if the helmet cracks in the crash, it is even less effective even though people mistakenly say things like "my helmet cracked and that would have been my head." if your helmet cracked, it didn't do you much good at all.)

    The point? Mandating helmet usage for high speed cycling is kind of silly. The helmet is almost totally useless at those impact speeds and its popularity is a triumph of marketing by helmet companies! Helmets are much more useful for people who ride slow since they can mitigate almost all the energy of a tipping-over-while-stopped type crash.
    Wrong on two points here.

    First, its a poor assumption that your head will hit whatever it's going to hit with ALL of your forward speed. Sure, it's possible. However, if you fall over to your side, it will be the same impact regardless of forward speed. Many crash scenarios will impact with less velocity than forward speed.

    Secondly, a helmet absorbs energy by crumpling. It takes energy to smash a helmet. that is energy that didn't go into your head. Furthermore, you seemed to have assumed a completely elastic collision, which is inappropriate. Heads don't bounce off the concrete, they thud inelastically. The function of a helmet is that while its crushing, it spreads the impact over an additional fraction of a second. This reduces g-forces and thus injury.

    I've landed on my head a few times without a helmet. Never again. it may not be perfect, but it's better than nothing.

    Would you tell a little kid to not wear a helmet?

  16. #16
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    1954 Hetchins M.O., 1959 Viking Severn Valley, 1970 Raleigh Pro, 1972 Fuji "The Finest", 1974 Raleigh Superbe&Comp, 1976 Raleigh Team Pro, 1994 Trek 830 MTB, 2000 Bob Jackson Arrowhead, Unicycle
    Posts
    13,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pacificaslim View Post
    ...

    The point? Mandating helmet usage for high speed cycling is kind of silly. The helmet is almost totally useless at those impact speeds and its popularity is a triumph of marketing by helmet companies! Helmets are much more useful for people who ride slow since they can mitigate almost all the energy of a tipping-over-while-stopped type crash.
    I suspect Jens Voigt is glad he was wearing a helmet in the Tour.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    5,194
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by formerbrit View Post
    What is this "hockey"?
    Good cross training for cycling. Another sport that transitioned into requiring helmet use. The original question of this thread was answered in the first response so we are meandering a little.

  18. #18
    Surf Bum
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacifica, CA
    My Bikes
    Vintage Trek, Vintage Diamond Back Mountain Bike, Bianchi Axis CrossBike
    Posts
    2,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by roadgator View Post
    Wrong on two points here.
    Not so much wrong, as you assuming I was making claims different from what I actually said. I.e. you're setting up a strawman and arguing against that.

    First, its a poor assumption that your head will hit whatever it's going to hit with ALL of your forward speed. Sure, it's possible. However, if you fall over to your side, it will be the same impact regardless of forward speed. Many crash scenarios will impact with less velocity than forward speed.
    My numbers were from a 30mph impact: rider hits side of car, rider goes flying over the handlebars, rider highsides in turn, rider lowsides in turn, etc. if you want to analyze different types of crashes where one's head hits the ground/tree/car/whatever at a lower impact speed, be my guest.

    Just remember that the helmet is only capable of absorbing the energy of a fall over type impact: any additional energy is going to be transmitted to the head. If you aren't moving and just fall over, your head will hit the ground at roughly 12mph, with about 1300 joules of energy. If your head is going 30mph when it hits the ground, that's about 6150 joules. The helmet will potentially subtract its 1300, leaving you with a 4850 joule impact. That's the same as from a helmetless 27mph impact. That is all the difference your helmet will make for you. But we never tell people to slow down: we tell them to wear a helmet and go nuts, with the mistaken belief that their helmet is going to protect them.


    Secondly, a helmet absorbs energy by crumpling. It takes energy to smash a helmet.
    It sure does. But not much energy! What I was explaining is that the amount of energy one gains from 27mph to 30mph is the same amount of energy that a bike helmet is capable of absorbing and thereby not transferring to the skull. That is all.

    As for your other claims of "better than nothing," please research how helmets add to rotational injuries (which are key in producing concussions and other brain injuries) before being so sure. Helmets are great at saving us from road rash, but perhaps not so good at preventing head injuries. Motorcycle helmets actually work: but not our flimsy bike helmets. Oddly, I usually wear one anyway! I just don't kid myself that it's going to perform miracles and realize that there are dozens of other actions I can do that'll do a better job of keeping myself safe.

  19. #19
    Surf Bum
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacifica, CA
    My Bikes
    Vintage Trek, Vintage Diamond Back Mountain Bike, Bianchi Axis CrossBike
    Posts
    2,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    I suspect Jens Voigt is glad he was wearing a helmet in the Tour.
    I'm sure he is happy. I'm sure happy he's ok because he's one of my favorites.

    But if he'd have been going a few mph slower, he would have been hurt the same even without his helmet. That's the crazy thing that we don't realize until we run the numbers. The helmets don't turn a crash into a non-event: they just reduce the impact and the faster we are going, the smaller of a difference it actually makes.

  20. #20
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    1954 Hetchins M.O., 1959 Viking Severn Valley, 1970 Raleigh Pro, 1972 Fuji "The Finest", 1974 Raleigh Superbe&Comp, 1976 Raleigh Team Pro, 1994 Trek 830 MTB, 2000 Bob Jackson Arrowhead, Unicycle
    Posts
    13,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pacificaslim View Post
    I'm sure he is happy. I'm sure happy he's ok because he's one of my favorites.

    But if he'd have been going a few mph slower, he would have been hurt the same even without his helmet. That's the crazy thing that we don't realize until we run the numbers. The helmets don't turn a crash into a non-event: they just reduce the impact and the faster we are going, the smaller of a difference it actually makes.
    Actually, in his case, I think the helmet did more than merely absorb some of the impact. I think it also prevented him from losing a lot more skin, and may have saved his eyesight. I see your point about head-on impacts, but quite a few of the accidents at speed are more of the "glancing blow" variety - in which case, the helmet may do considerably more good than you seem to want to give it credit for.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  21. #21
    Surf Bum
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacifica, CA
    My Bikes
    Vintage Trek, Vintage Diamond Back Mountain Bike, Bianchi Axis CrossBike
    Posts
    2,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Agreed. The shell of the helmet (if hard plastic and smoothly shaped) allowing the head to slide along the ground does help spread the impact over a larger area and also prevents road rash and may protect the eyes as you mentioned.

  22. #22
    insert witty comment here Mr_Christopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Dallas Texas
    My Bikes
    '09 Trek 7.2 FX, mid 90s Trek 820, 1982 Schwinn Super LeTour, Legran Seville, Peugeot UE 18
    Posts
    831
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wow thanks for all the replies. I feel like I got a history lesson. Cheers!

    Chris

  23. #23
    raodmaster shaman
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    G-ville
    Posts
    1,431
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pacificaslim View Post
    My numbers were from a 30mph impact: rider hits side of car, rider goes flying over the handlebars, rider highsides in turn, rider lowsides in turn, etc. if you want to analyze different types of crashes where one's head hits the ground/tree/car/whatever at a lower impact speed, be my guest.

    Just remember that the helmet is only capable of absorbing the energy of a fall over type impact: any additional energy is going to be transmitted to the head. If you aren't moving and just fall over, your head will hit the ground at roughly 12mph, with about 1300 joules of energy. If your head is going 30mph when it hits the ground, that's about 6150 joules. The helmet will potentially subtract its 1300, leaving you with a 4850 joule impact. That's the same as from a helmetless 27mph impact. That is all the difference your helmet will make for you. But we never tell people to slow down: we tell them to wear a helmet and go nuts, with the mistaken belief that their helmet is going to protect them.
    I wasn't questioning if you calculated the kinetic energy correctly, merely pointing out that the metric is beside the point in this case. What matters is the change in momentum or impulse, m(v2-V2) =F*t, or (v2-v1)=a*t. The left hand side is fixed, so an object can either be slowed down quickly with a large force, or slowly with a small force.

    By your thinking, i would be injured just peddling my bike up to 30mph. Same change in kinetic energy right? The rate of acceleration can't be ignored, because that is what causes the injury. Impacts are measured in G's, not joules.

  24. #24
    Surf Bum
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pacifica, CA
    My Bikes
    Vintage Trek, Vintage Diamond Back Mountain Bike, Bianchi Axis CrossBike
    Posts
    2,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sometimes. But CPSC helmet standards (and snell standards) are described in Joules since they are based on a drop-testing. So when discussing helmets, we might as well talk about the joules (kinetic energy) possible from a drop-height or speed at impact.

  25. #25
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,671
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I might have missed someone saying this but Casartelli was wearing a helmet, I think it was a Specialized one (I had one like it).

    Belgium, when I started racing in 1983, required "helmets", but they didn't define what a helmet was. Other countries didn't require one, except the US. No definition of "helmet".

    I used a Brancale Giro helmet for some time, a shell plus some fitting foam. A friend broke his (actually a Brancale Sport) when he tapped a log with his helmet.

    The rest you can read above.

    cdr

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •