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Old 07-21-04, 10:32 AM   #1
CarlJStoneham
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Roberto Heras = Poetic Justice

Moving to a new team was fine, but the way it was handled was pathetic (a call from one lawyer to another). Now Heras is a non-contender, almost an hour back, and he's on track to finish worse than he did last year. What's more he hasn't even seen the podium at a stages (that I can think of) compared at least to his TTT appearance last year. He may have been an important part of USPS, but now the only time he's mentioned is to say "And Heras has completely blown it" or "Heras has cracked", etc, etc, etc.

Sweet.
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Old 07-21-04, 10:33 AM   #2
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Trolling today, are we?
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Old 07-21-04, 10:54 AM   #3
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I really don't think thats trolling as he's given fair reasoning for his opinion. Disagree? Then debate him.
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Old 07-21-04, 10:55 AM   #4
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It's not so much trolling as it is taking delight in anothers failure. That's sad.
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Old 07-21-04, 10:59 AM   #5
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I for one agree that the way Heras handled the team switch was a bit crass. However, I don't delight in any of the riders failing.
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Old 07-21-04, 11:14 AM   #6
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Trolling today, are we
Nope

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It's not so much trolling as it is taking delight in anothers failure. That's sad.
Nope

Heras thought he could run w/ the big boys on his own and he can't. You talk big, you better back it up. If he had handled things with more class and courage, I'd just be hurting for him. As it is, he took the chicken**** way out he deserves what what he's getting. Karma strikes again. <<< And yes, I know, that was 100% opinion and no reasoning. Just the way I feel on that topic.
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Old 07-21-04, 11:24 AM   #7
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i'm not sure you can really know how/why Heras handled the situation without having been involved in it.
as an example, maybe he had it handled thru lawyers because if he did it himself he was afraid he'd be talked out of it, and he really wanted to give being a team leader a shot. plus i'm not sure the info that comes out of these things is really true. who knows how it was actually handled?
and i'd say winning 2 tours of spain, and being a big part of LA winning the tour of france on more than one occasion means you can run with the big boys.
the guy wanted to lead a team, LA doesn't appear to be retiring soon so if he had stayed with postal heras never would have had a chance to do it.
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Old 07-21-04, 11:27 AM   #8
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How about we turn this around, and talk about Azevedo? This guy is having a great Tour so far! He has not only filled in nicely for Heras, but he can TT too. He may finish in the top 5 in GC! That's pretty good considering he was in this to help LA, and not himself. Two Posties in the top 5 would be a great for the team.
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Old 07-21-04, 11:30 AM   #9
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talk about Azevedo
Yeah, "Ace" ("Aze"?) rocks!
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Old 07-21-04, 11:40 AM   #10
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and i'd say winning 2 tours of spain, and being a big part of LA winning the tour of france on more than one occasion means you can run with the big boys
Not as a leader of a team in the TdF he can't (at least not this year). He would actually have been better served to stay w/ USPS where he'd have a higher finish and then have the team there to lead in the Vuelta which seemed like the perfect mix: Lance leads in the TdF, Heras leads in the VaS. Heras made a big mistake and I think it will show at the Vuelta as well. He obviously works best when he's following, not leading. I think he made a serious miscalculation of his personal mentality when he thought he could lead a team.
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Old 07-21-04, 12:08 PM   #11
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Even if he did "miscalculate," so what? The man wanted a shot as a TdF teamleader and took an opportunity. Obviously this Tour has been a disaster but many people (myself included) would rather go out and try, even with the possibility of embarrassing failure a real possibility.

Perhaps your adoration of LA blinds you to the fact that other people have ambitions too.

I wish Heras well.

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Old 07-21-04, 12:17 PM   #12
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maybe he had it handled thru lawyers because if he did it himself he was afraid he'd be talked out of it
If this was the case, he shouldn't be a team leader (and yes, I know you were speaking hypothetically. Just seemed like an interesting possibility).

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Perhaps your adoration of LA blinds you
Adoration has nothing to do with it (and it's tremendous respect, not adoration (completely different things)). It's more scorn for Heras' cowardly way out. I have absolutely no problem with him taking a team leadership. Doesn't bother me at all and, if he had done it like a man, I'd be behind him all the way (for 2nd). As it was, he did what a little boy would do and got someone else to go break the news. Never been much room in my book to cheer for/congratulate someone like that. In that respect, ambition is a bad thing. If you have to take the easy/cowardly way out, your ambition ain't worth squat...
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Old 07-21-04, 12:20 PM   #13
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PS, Just in case all this is coming out wrong, I'm not rabidly anti-Heras. Well... maybe I am. OK, what I mean to say is that I'm not rabid. I think. Hmmmm. Well, I guess I'm trying to say that I think this is all karma? Yeah. Something like that...

(Now, I'm gonna go ride my bike and chase some rabid dogs. )
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Old 07-21-04, 12:24 PM   #14
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Well, I guess I'm trying to say that I think this is all karma? Yeah. Something like that...
I would have chalked it up to a couple of crashes that hurt Heras....but that's just me.
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Old 07-21-04, 12:33 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by CarlJStoneham
As it was, he did what a little boy would do and got someone else to go break the news. Never been much room in my book to cheer for/congratulate someone like that.
Well, for one, it's a business. For two, you don't know the whole story about him leaving the team. Maybe USPS treated him the same way. We don't know. And maybe he thought he was handling it the right way when he moved.
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Old 07-21-04, 05:41 PM   #16
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I have great respect for Heras. He was a great rider for Postal, and seems to also be a fine person. To knock him for taking a shot for himself is silly - damn silly.
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Old 07-21-04, 08:44 PM   #17
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Again, not knocking him for taking a shot at leading his own team Knocking him for taking the coward's way out and having the lawyers contact USPS to work things out. When he did that, he lost any support from this cyclist (of course, I assume he could care less. If he did, I'm sure he'd let me know through his lawyer instead of doing it himself )

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I would have chalked it up to a couple of crashes that hurt Heras....but that's just me
That would still be karma
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Old 07-21-04, 08:55 PM   #18
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It's unfortunate that Heras is having a poor Tour. It just isn't his year. I don't think he can ever beat an on-form Lance or Jan, but he could get a top 5 placing (especially when they include an MTT like this year).

As for Azevedo, he has impressed me like almost no other in this Tour de France. I knew he would do well, but he is a very talented cyclist and could easily podium if he weren't working for Lance. When Bruyneel said he felt Azevedo is better than Heras, he sure wasn't kidding.
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Old 07-21-04, 09:03 PM   #19
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Again, not knocking him for taking a shot at leading his own team Knocking him for taking the coward's way out and having the lawyers contact USPS to work things out. When he did that, he lost any support from this cyclist (of course, I assume he could care less. If he did, I'm sure he'd let me know through his lawyer instead of doing it himself )
This is a professional sport with professional athletes, unfortunately lawyers/agents are part of the game. I wouldn't expect anything less from any other pro-rider.


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That would still be karma
Perhaps, it looks like every top GC contender has fallen off their bike, except Jan Ullrich. Hamilton and Mayo both dropped out from some part of their crashes, Heras is having a poor tour partially because of his.

You're discounting this guy as not being a team leader, which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but he's been the "leader" on winning teams for 2 other Grand Tours in the past, there is no reason why he can't be now.

Andrew
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Old 07-21-04, 09:09 PM   #20
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ou're discounting this guy as not being a team leader
Not really. All I'm getting at is that he handled the "I'm gonna head Liberty..." thing like a coward (that and that I don't think he has what it takes to be a *TdF* team leader). Sure it's the pros, etc, but you could tell that Johan (who strikes me as relatively rational and level-headed) was surprised about the way he handled it. He even said they could have worked something out. Heras chickened out. I know he's a good rider, but I think this all came back around to bite him in the ass and, to be honest, I feel like justive has been served. Perhaps after an off-season, I'll be a tad more inclined to pull for him, but for right now, the only yellow he should be wearing is a stripe down his back. Some people hate Virenque despite his incredible streak in the TdF. I guess I'm that way about Heras right now...
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Old 07-22-04, 06:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by CarlJStoneham
He would actually have been better served to stay w/ USPS
Really?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Old 07-22-04, 08:20 AM   #22
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Not sure it's just $$$$. A top USPS rider makes plenty of those. Heras was salaried pretty well and, of course, got his slice of LA's "pie" the last 2 years as well. Even Saiz talked of Roberto riding for "financial reasons" in the past.

If Carl's rendition of Heras' departure is spot-on I understand his feelings but still don't agree. Heras isn't an English speaker and wouldn't have much access to US media to get his side out.

It seems every USPS rider who has left has drawn criticism at one time or another. Riding for LA must be a tremendous experience but there'll always be some who want to ride for themselves.

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Old 07-22-04, 08:26 AM   #23
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Trolling today, are we?
Since when does criticism = trolling?
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Old 07-22-04, 09:06 AM   #24
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Interesting point RoadWarrior.Anyone have figures on his salary w/ Liberty as leader vs USPS as a "domestique"?
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Old 07-22-04, 05:50 PM   #25
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G'day,

I reckon threads like this just add to the 'anti lance' factions......And it makes me feel that perhaps no-one actually is anti Lance, just anti some of the stupid, ignorant, moronic, 'johnny come lately' so called cycling fans that have come out of the 'wood work' in the last few years. Unfortunately, usernet gives them an outlet....such is life. Good image guys, keep it up......the rest of the cycling world already thinks so highly of you...this can only help. Apologies to those that have also had a 'dig' at this troll, these remarks are obviously not mean't for you,

cheers,

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