TimB

ah at alst some level headed discussion.

I agree that Kloden went a bit early but the moment was created by his momentum and he took the only chance he had.

jan could have blocke lance a bit but the guys just toooo NICE to do that.
Lance has a killer instinct that I would not like to meet in a dark alley (seen the expression on his face after winning lately).

Kloden fading, alnce accelerating, explains it all

Faster

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that every rider in the Tour is doping.

Allen H

The replay clearly shows that Lance took off just after Kloden looked back and saw he was clear, so Kloden relaxed, thinking he had the stage won. He didn't look again until Lance was already on his wheel and had all the momentum - by which time it was too late for Kloden to hold Lance off. Kloden didn't check back often enough to see Lance coming, or he could have held him off, I think.

teamawe

As other have said Kloden was slow near the finish. Hell he was sitting up soft-pedaling towards the line there at the end. And a big reason LA had so much speed was that Floyd dropped the hammer and was closing on Kloden. The shock to me is why Tmobile's director wasnt screaming for Kloden to push thru. Landis really closed that gap and gave Lance the platform to launch from. Tmobile had time to see what was happening.

While I agree that Lance was moving at the end, I think it looks faster because of how slow Koden was going once he shot his wad.

TimB

are we watching the same tour??

gringorio

i find Lance's style of riding extremely uninspiring. sitting in the whole way, hardly attacking, and seemingly getting ahead only through the attrition caused by his team mates doing all the hard work. no wonder he has fresh legs to win a sprint. that opinion stated, is this method of winning a great tour going to be the future of racing or will there be teams and riders that will continue to take chances, race all the big tours and classics and not be afraid to attack?

Methos

That is a very good point. It seems like the Tours of old had a lot more individualism and not such domination. Unfortunately for us, Lance is a hell of an athlete and along with the combination of the best team on the planet, there really is no touching him. But who are we to judge. They are there to win the tour and that's what they do. They dominate.

I love Lance, I am inspired by his determination and take no Sh&% attitude. Not just on a bike, but when he fought cancer as well. He seems to attack all challenges in his life that way.

I remember reading an article on him in Sports Illustrated a couple of years back. I think it was just after he won his 3rd or 4th tour. Rick Reilly was interviewing him, (I think that was him), and they were out riding. Lance was riding slow so he wouldn't kill Rick. Lance's phone rings and it is a friend who rides for another team. He wanted to know what Lance was doing. Lance said he was biking. The guy couldn't believe it because he was enjoying getting over the tour and he was out at the bars drinking in Europe. That's just the kind of guy Lance is. The day after the tour he is back on his bike riding. Insane.

I think, and Lance attests to this, that the cancer was the best thing for his cycling career. It broke down all his upper body strength from the tri's and really built him into a tour rider. He never was a tour rider beforehand. Combined with all the other genetically freakish attributes that he has towards cycling, I really don't see why he wouldn't dominate. He has the whole package, mentally and physically.

ke422azn

When you are already at that state where you are the top. Its the genetics that determines the winner. A can guarantee you Lance does NOT train more than EVERYONE in TdF. Im sure, there are a few people that train harder than him. They dont win because they arent blessed with as good genetics as lance. Genetic doping is already almost on it way where genes are inserted to certain muscle cells so certain proteins are constantly made. Genetic doping is almost undetectable because it doesnt float in the blood stream. By then, well see even more superhuman biker riders much faster than lance.

bikenutr2000

He is on something...his bike 6 hours a day!

ChezJfrey

I've seen this often and it cracks me up! Could not Jan pretend Postal are his teammates also and ride just behind the group for the whole stage also? Could he not then sprint for the finish on his "fresh" legs?

No, you say? Why?

Because you've gotta have your own motor to do it. The same guys splintering the peloton to bits with their torrid pace would also ride Lance to the ground if he were not conditioned properly. Yeah, his team's important, but their tempo must be matched by their leader and he's proven that he is the stronger rider in contention for GC.

roadwarrior

Thank you.

Pretty soon the July bike fans will be on the the NFL training camps opening.

shokhead

I guess ya just cant say he's better then the rest and let it go at that. Petty won 200 races and the next closest is around 72 wins and i've never,ever heard someone say is he's cheating.Gagne for the dodgers saved like 80 in a row and nobody said anything about dope. Now i belive LA was tested more last year then any other rider,right? So maybe he just works his ass off,is better then the rest,at least in the mountains where everybody else knows thats where he wins it and has a hell of a team. Nope,he must be on dope. Whatever,until they find it,its getting old. Havent they had 6 or 7 years to find it? Maybe its a new way to win,cancer and dope.

TimB

hallelujah!! Someone with an idea of what it'slike to ride in a bike race.
If Lance isn't conditioned, he won't keep up, he won't win.
He wins because he is strong, fast and i able to recover better than his rivals.

If the guy is doping, please find me the drugs.
Until then, innocent till proven guilty.

kerank

I think it's a combination of a lot of things, and you guys have given some great thoughts (focused training, genetics, team, etc...)

Here are more reasons for his dominance THIS YEAR:
- Experience and preparation - the guy knows what it takes to win the TDF.
- People saying he is vunerable after last year motivated him throughout the year.
- Quality rivals just didn't show well. Who are the guys that have the talent to beat LA... Ullrich, Hamilton, Vino, maybe Mayo. Vino didn't start. Hamilton crashed out. IMO Ullrich and Mayo miss-timed their peak (Ullrich too late, and Mayo too soon). Basso has to work on his TT to be a serious threat. It will be interesting to see if he can hold on to a podium spot in the last ITT.

phoolish

No one is denying his incredible conditioning, but rather, I think, there is a general suspicion that in the highest levels of any endurance sport, doping is common. Also, recall the wording of essentially everyone's (Lance's included) denial: "I have never tested positive for any banned substance."

Note that it's not "I have never used any banned substance" nor "I have never used performance-enhancing substances yet unbanned." Personally, I think he's probably clean; it'd take some remarkable stupidity to risk people thinking that all six of his Tour victories relied on chemistry rather than simple effort, but I'd not discount the possibility of drug use.

shokhead

LA could really be god riding a Trek,anything is possible.

wabbit

I've wondered as well, lately. With all the stage wins, I'm thinking, yeah, like hell he's not doping. The guy is 32 and getting STRONGER and beating guys younger than he is. I know cycling is also a lot about experience. FOr instance, older sprinters still win because sprinting isn't always about speed, it's about having a nose for a gap and being savvy. And classics winners are often older because it really requires years of toughness. BUt climbing the alps? I don't know, that's a bit different. I remember wondering about sprinter michael johnson, who was invisible in barcelona but atlanta is 32 and beating guys 8 years younger. As it turns out he probably was on dope.

S_DOG34

I've always been thinking the same thing. It isn't like USPS are all wearing some kind of super suit that only allows them to receive the drafting benefits from each other. When you think about it Armstrong is in a worse position than an Ullrich or a Basso on the major climbs because he doesn't get to draft himself whereas anyone who can keep up with the pace does. I'm glad to see that others realize this is a totally and utterly flawed argument.

Smoothie104

Lets talk about the Actovegin Postal got caught disposing of in 2000, the fact that Postal currently employes the same doctor as ONCE did, back in the late 90's when organized team administerd doping was at its heyday. And the case of Joachim Benoit, who was fired by Postal for testing positive for Nandralone (anabolic steroid) yet is back on the team again.

I'd start, but I'd rather hear what you all have to say first.........

Guest

Armstrong is a smart cyclist- I constantly go to lectures and training sessions and the one thing they lecture and beat into our heads is that as athletes get older, they can stay close to or maintain their level of fitness as long as they train SMARTER, not HARDER. I know people probably get tired of hearing me say this but there's only one word to explain why Lance seems to get better every year: PERIODIZATION. It's no big secret, there are so many books popping up on the subject, especially lately, since most athletes are finally understanding that with structure to your training, you can actually time when you'll have your best performance, and with this timing, you can win your races. They look at successful athletes like Armstrong, and they're getting it-so they're starting to train smarter. The problem with these athletes, as opposed to Lance is that Lance has been using this program of training for years, whereas most other athletes are just now getting their programs figured out. Every year, the program can be tweaked and fine-tuned, according to how Lance tests when he undergoes the performance testing. It is definitely feasible that Lance can get better and better, and that is why. I'm sure at the end of every season, Chris sits down with all the other coaches Lance uses and analyzes everything Lance did, and they spend months coming up with Lance's new training program. With every weakness that shows up this year, I will guarantee you that they will have a way to train that weakness away so that when he starts his program in January, he'll be ready to race by early May.

Having said all that, sure, genetics plays a big factor. We all know Armstrong's vital stats, and they are impressive. But beyond that, he trains his team and uses them in such a way so that he can pace himself off his team and use them throughout the stage to save his energy. Then at the end of the race, or whenever he's lost his last man, he can use all his stored energy reserves for winning the stage. There's nothing wrong with that- that is what the team is there for. I talked about the Team Time Trial a bit back when people wondered what the point of the TTT was. Back then, I emphasized that I thought the TTT was to show the world how it's not just about the GC contender- it's about how the team works together to help the GC achieve his goal. With 9 riders, Lance can feasibly win every single race, especially when every rider is there to ensure that he can conserve his energy. He doesn't have to go back for water or food, he doesn't have to take on the wind, he doesn't have to chase down the breakaway packs, he just sits back and climbs in the slipstream. Sure, he's working hard, but the team definitely ensures that he will have the energy to finish the day. I feel sorry for the riders without teams that try to head out for the finish alone- Basso had no one, so unless he was fresh that day, he wasn't going to win the stage. Kloden and Ullrich should have worked together to attack Landis and Armstrong, but they chose to be lazy and let Landis do all the pacing. Then when the time came for the sprint, who is going to win? The best rider of the four of them- Basso, Ullrich, Kloden, and Armstrong. Who do you think is the best rider there? Seriously. They should have worked better. If they'd done it smart, they would have ALL traded off the work (not just leaving it to Landis to pace the four of them), or Ullrich and Kloden would have worked together against Landis and Armstrong, then Kloden and Ullrich should have had a plan to attack Armstrong and Landis, and they all would have left Basso in the wind (and we saw how Basso was almost lost in the downhill for a while there, as it seemed as though Ullrich and Kloden began working together, but of course, it was too late by then!). It was a bad strategy for Ullrich and Kloden to pace off Armstrong and Landis, and then expect that they would be better than Armstrong when the time came for the sprint. It was a bad plan, and seeing as though they hadn't won against Armstrong before stage 17, why think after 16.95 stages that THIS time, they'd do it? Not smart.... add that to the fact that Kloden thought he'd won, so he definitely slowed down. I think the only reason why he looked back at that split second was because suddenly, the CROWD went wild, and he was probably thinking "what the...?" and by the time he realized what was going on and accelerated, Lance was already fully accelerated and headed towards the finish. So that's a shame, although if Kloden had continued to accelerate instead of slowing down and seen Lance coming much sooner, and not hesitated, maybe he would have had an outside chance of winning. But like Phil and Paul said at one point during the Tour, Kloden just doesn't have the experience yet of being a leader, and when he's the leader, he gets nervous (this is paraphrased). Kloden definitely needs some more wins under his belt (yes, I know he won the German National Championships, just saying he needs more wins and to be groomed a bit more to take over as a team leader, that's all). I bet you the next time he's sprinting towards the finish line, though, he'll know exactly where everyone else in his group is in relation to him!

I don't think Armstrong is doping- when people are accomplished, others will always wonder what they are doing to get to that point. Lance has no obligation to reveal his training methods- that would be suicide. He can do the Lance Chronicles all he wants, but you can bet when it comes down to it, there isn't a lot the Lance Chronicles tell about his training, because to do that is like giving away all his trade secrets to the enemy, and for free. But with the oxygen tents, the supplements, the meals, counting carbs and calories, and his real, honest to goodness, supervised training program, we only see a fraction of what it takes to build someone who is as gifted as Lance into the freakish powerhorse he is.

It also doesn't hurt Lance to focus mostly on the Tour de France too- there are definitely stages he's run over and over in practice rides, both with his teams and alone, so he has an excellent idea of what the course is going to be like. I know Paul and Phil said that by the time the Tour started, Lance and his team had ridden that whole course together as a team TWICE. How many other teams have ridden that course together twice? And then, of course, he rides it alone too, and I bet those other 8 that basically peed blood and gave up their legs for Lance have probably ridden that course on their own time too, which is how they're able to pace those mountain stages so well and make it look like they're skipping over to the ice cream truck to get a snack. Did you all see how those guys up in the front didn't even have to attack? They just kept their pacing consistent while the other riders slowly fatigued and fell off. And in the middle of that, Lance was able to draft behind all 8 of his faithful companions, while just riding at the pace he trained himself (and his team) to ride at. He didn't exert himself any harder than he probably did during his training rides. So when the time came for stage 17, and that sprint to the end, he was probably better prepared for it than the other 4 riders out there.

These are just my guesses from observing, watching the Lance Chronicles, and reading the stuff Chris Carmichael does about his training and all, and then watching the race and listening to Phil and Paul comment on the race- which, by the way, they usually can guess pretty accurately what's going on, since the post-race interviews with Lance confirms what they're saying is happening during the race (at least, 85% of the time!).

Koffee

TimB

WOW,

Koffie that was a great post! Filled with informative analysis and well structured logic.
I agree with what you're saying too.

a very good example is Mountain bikers who race the TransAlp, Trans Rockies and Cape Epic type events.
8 days of hard riding in the saddle and the guys who come out in front are not the young stallions but the older more conditioned riders due to as you called it Periodisation based training.
And thats the same methodology carmichael preaches in his training book.
The downside of this type of training is that the older you get the lower the period in which you will perform at your maximum peak.
So in fact we'll more than likely see lance perform at peak for fewer and fewer events. he may to ride more of them to assist with conditioning, but he'll need to ride at a lower state than in the event he needs to peak in.

shokhead

Like i've said,he hasnt won all of these in a row from being a smart doper but a smart cyclist. He just about comes out and says i'll win it in the mountains and they all know it. Today,if not already you'll see it in the faces of the big boys. I have to say i sure like the way Basso has ridden,wow! All of you that are tired of LA,its going to get flooded. I wish they could do a comparison of a few top teams to show how they get ready for the TDF and see how if any LA and team differ.

brent_dube

Attacking worked in the past because the playing field was much lower and nowone had the teamates to handle those attacks.

If Hinault goes up the road on the Galibier, his rivals aren't going to have strong enough teamates to chase. But that all changes now. It's about riding smart. I find that inspiring.

Guest

Shokhead, that's the coolest thing I could ever see OLN do- I'm actually going to forward yet another feedback and ask if they are going to do cross comparisons of the different teams training for the tour. I think looking at different styles, techniques, strategies, etc. would give us the best look inside what it takes to train for the Tour.

Koffee

Guest

I agree with most of what you say, but it's also become well known in the past... say 5- 10 years that an athlete can maintain their current level of fitness, provided that they continue to train at the same level and intensity. Look at someone like Sally Edwards, who at 25 years old had a max heart rate of something like 182, and now, at 53 years old, still has the same maximum heart rate. Definitely, I can say I haven't maintained the same level and intensity of my maximum fitness, so my maximum heart rate has fallen to about 200 bpm. But the good news is, once I did start training smart, and I kept my level and intensity high, I have been able to maintain this 200 bpm for the past 4 years. For the average, non-to moderate training individual, the number would have fallen much more over a four year period.

Lance will still be able to perform... I think he just needs to be smarter and smarter- you can't beat the clock, but you can certainly stall and slow it as much as possible...

Koffee