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Old 07-23-04, 09:54 AM   #1
Devil
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Bahamontes says it's a shame Virenque won a 7th KoM

For those of you who don't know, Federico Bahamontes (along with Lucien Van Impe and formerly Virenque) holds the record for most amount of KoM jerseys won - six. Bahamontes is considered by many to be the greatest climber of all time along with Charly Gaul.

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=332
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Old 07-23-04, 10:02 AM   #2
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Hmmmm, anyone who denigrates LA's possible 6 victories is called bitter and jealous. Of course, Virenque is not so sympathetic a character as LA and he is French. Wonder what the reaction will be to this?
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Old 07-23-04, 10:21 AM   #3
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Don,

Baha had a bit of Vitriol for Lance and Spanish climbers as well,
it wasn't all about Virenque.

Marty
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Old 07-23-04, 10:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don d.
Hmmmm, anyone who denigrates LA's possible 6 victories is called bitter and jealous. Of course, Virenque is not so sympathetic a character as LA and he is French. Wonder what the reaction will be to this?
You really have a vandetta against... something... don't you? Lord knows what it is.

I was going to say that Bahamontes is the new Greg Lemond.
His words show lack of understanding of the change of the racing today.
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Old 07-23-04, 10:25 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by lotek
Don,

Baha had a bit of Vitriol for Lance and Spanish climbers as well,
it wasn't all about Virenque.

Marty
Yes...I read the article, but thread is about Virenque.(?????) I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Is there an emoticon for confused?
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Old 07-23-04, 10:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
You really have a vandetta against... something... don't you? Lord knows what it is.
Quite frankly, I don't think the Lord cares about it.

No vendettas. Just curious if the reactions will be defensive of Virenque as reactions have been defensive of LA.
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Old 07-23-04, 10:48 AM   #7
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I think Baha does sound a little (okay, maybe a lot) bitter. Not just towards Virenque, but towards Lance and the Spanish riders too. Records are made to be broken.

I can't speak for what he says about the organizers setting Richard up to draft behind cars and motorcycles to score the points, though.

That said, Baha has earned the right to be bitter. It doesn't make him correct, however.
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Old 07-23-04, 11:06 AM   #8
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Am I the only one who just finds it funny? The guy is almost eighty years old, for cripes sake. He reminds me of my father in law who used to play semi-pro baseball. Watching a baseball game with him today is an endless stream of criticisms about how much easier the game is today and how it's not really baseball anymore.

It's just how people get when they get old. I think it's funny. Reminds me of Grandpa Simpson.
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Old 07-23-04, 11:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don d.
Yes...I read the article, but thread is about Virenque.(?????) I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Is there an emoticon for confused?
Don,

Just commenting on the statement
Quote:
anyone who denigrates LA's possible 6 victories is called bitter and jealous
thats all, just pointing out that baha is a bit vitriolic towards alot
of riders not just Ricky.

There is an emoticon for confused, just not sure how to insert it here!
(I'll find out tho!).

Marty
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Old 07-23-04, 11:30 AM   #10
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Ok, I found this for confused:



Don't know if we can get it over here!

Marty
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Old 07-23-04, 11:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lotek
Ok, I found this for confused:



Don't know if we can get it over here!

Marty
We could sure use it!
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Old 07-23-04, 12:39 PM   #12
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There used to be. Something like :confused:, but it disappeared w/the latest version of forum SW.
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Old 07-23-04, 12:48 PM   #13
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Records are made to be broken. When they fall previous holders sometimes take it well, sometimes don't. Greg LeMond, whom I greatly admire, is a prime example of the not taking it well camp. Jack Nicklaus used to get testy when asked about Tiger Woods but really showed class overall. Of course, the fact that Tiger's game has fallen off and many of Nicklaus' records don't look to fall might help that.

Hinault and Merckx are quick to remind observers that they won alot more than the TdF but overall seem to be taking LA's success pretty well. Indurain too.

I've gotten to where I kinda like Virenque. His past is poor but it seems he's overcome that and does bring excitement to Tours that otherwise would only feature USPS tempo riding the legs off everyone. (That's a generalization Lancephiles, don't flame me).

The overall point? I guess some people can't stand to see their records fall, can't do anything about it.

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Old 07-23-04, 12:58 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Am I the only one who just finds it funny?
No, you are not alone in your assessment. It was the first thing that came to mind when I read the article.
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Old 07-23-04, 01:07 PM   #15
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damn.. Baha sounds like a bitter old guy that sits around yelling at kids to stay off his lawn !!

True, racing today is much different 1000 years ago when he raced... but his comments just show how disrespectful he is. He is complaining about Virenque getting people to ride in front of him to block wind... well ya know what? So do all the other KoM contenders... Virenque is just better at it then they are.

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Old 07-23-04, 01:27 PM   #16
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Back in my day, we had to ride up hill, both ways, with anchors attached, against a headwind, with bare feet!

Bah, whatever...

Virenque is riding well this tour - good for him!
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Old 07-23-04, 03:13 PM   #17
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I think the bitterness comes from the way sports evolve. The greats of the past didn't go to MIT and hop into a wind tunnel to study their aerodynamics. Frame materials like carbon fiber didn't exist. It goes on and on. If I were a great athlete with a bunch of records, I'd feel a little put off at how athletes use technological breakthroughs to perform better. I'd want it be be purely about the man, but that's not the way it is or will ever be again I guess.

Baseball (which I know more of ATM) is the same. Wonder why more guys are hitting 30-40 HRs a year? Laser eye surgery sure helps. When a guy can walk out the door of his local ophthamologist with fighter pilot vision, he's a threat to go yard. And that's legal. Nevermind the stuff the MLBPA sweeps under the rug.
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Old 07-23-04, 03:44 PM   #18
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ChezJfrey, you forgot "with no wheels".

This is really all just silly. I know it must be hard for someone to see a long-standing record broken, but please! That's just plain arrogant. They've had their 40 years in the spotlight and they'll die soon anyway. Ug. Just say "I'm very happy for him. Excuse me now. I have to go ride my bike." It's all good. They are, after all, just records. The world is not fundamentally changed by their existence or lack thereof
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Old 07-24-04, 08:17 AM   #19
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I think Virenque really deserves this, over the other climbers that wanted it (that bastard)
20, or 60 years ago, whenever that guy raced, there wasn't an extremely tough first 10 days to burn out all of the climbers that could potentially win the KOM. While some pre-race favorites were being dropped, Virenque was sprinting away from the pack to get points.

I don't think that dislike for Virenque is about nationality. It's probably about the fact that he was a cheater for years, and that he tried to ruin those who helped him to save himself. I'm not going to like a guy simply because he wins races.... winning races shouldn't be the most honorable thing in this world.

Maybe Federico Bahamontes is doing too much focus on the numbers... the records. He was a great rider, Armstrong is a great rider, Virenque is a great rider... simple as that.
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Old 08-05-04, 04:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_dube
I think Virenque really deserves this, over the other climbers that wanted it (that bastard)
20, or 60 years ago, whenever that guy raced, there wasn't an extremely tough first 10 days to burn out all of the climbers that could potentially win the KOM. While some pre-race favorites were being dropped, Virenque was sprinting away from the pack to get points.

I don't think that dislike for Virenque is about nationality. It's probably about the fact that he was a cheater for years, and that he tried to ruin those who helped him to save himself. I'm not going to like a guy simply because he wins races.... winning races shouldn't be the most honorable thing in this world.

Maybe Federico Bahamontes is doing too much focus on the numbers... the records. He was a great rider, Armstrong is a great rider, Virenque is a great rider... simple as that.


Virenque enters the tour with the only purpose of winning the mountain jersey. As far as I can see there are not any other teams that allow a team member that luxury. As a result he ends up racing against himself which I find rather funny. I would be embarassed to wear the mountain jersey and finish around 25th in the mountain TT...if that doesn't say it all I don't know what does. It's kinda like sprinting for a spot in a group ride when no one else does....then getting all pumped up at how you whupped them all.
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Old 08-05-04, 06:38 PM   #21
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I feel that Virenque's past has tainted some of his KoM victories. He addmitted to doping and I feel an astrik should be placed by any win's he had during the time he doped. If I were a record holder and someone, who it was later found had been doping, broke my record I'd be a little p#$#ed off about it.

If it were conclusively proved tomorrow that LA had been doping for the last six TdF's do you think he should keep his victories? I don't and I feel Virenque's previous wins are not valid.
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Old 08-05-04, 06:50 PM   #22
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It's kinda like sprinting for a spot in a group ride when no one else does....then getting all pumped up at how you whupped them all.
G'day,

but if you don't turn up to 'play'.....you lose!. This is why the Darwin Ice hockey team are 6 time world champions. They don't have an ice rink, or skates, but every year they send letters to all the NHL teams in the states inviting them to the world championships in darwin...every year, no-one turns up....(except the darwin team), QED...darwin are the world champs. They have a barbie & a piss-up on the beach to celebrate there win!.......Its a huge celebration.......(what this has to do with this thread, i don't know...but hey......trivial crap is trivial crap, no matter where it's posted),

cheers,

Hitchy
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Old 08-05-04, 07:06 PM   #23
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I hear you jkoman! Maybe thats why it looks like a clown's jersey! Still its a big prize and I'm sure others would proudly wear it. I guess most who could win it have GC aspirations and can't go with the early break on every mountain stage. Virenque knows he can't win the yellow, so he goes for KOM and stage wins. He wins prizes and cycling fans like him for that.

Can't say I'd be embarassed to come 25th in the mountain tt! Even if leading in the KOM! He's unlikely to take mountain points on that stage, so best to save energy for other less highly contested summits. Still 25th shows he didn't sandbag too much, a pretty high finish, really.
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Old 08-14-04, 10:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by brent_dube

I think Virenque really deserves this, over the other climbers that wanted it (that bastard)
20, or 60 years ago, whenever that guy raced, there wasn't an extremely tough first 10 days to burn out all of the climbers that could potentially win the KOM. While some pre-race favorites were being dropped, Virenque was sprinting away from the pack to get points.

Flaneur:
If you don't know when Bahamontes raced, why should I trust your 'research' about the promenading early stages of the Tour in years gone by?

B-D
I don't think that dislike for Virenque is about nationality. It's probably about the fact that he was a cheater for years, and that he tried to ruin those who helped him to save himself. I'm not going to like a guy simply because he wins races.... winning races shouldn't be the most honorable thing in this world.

Flaneur:
I agree with you. I wish a few more of today's top riders did.

B-D
Maybe Federico Bahamontes is doing too much focus on the numbers... the records. He was a great rider, Armstrong is a great rider, Virenque is a great rider... simple as that.

Flaneur:
Virenque is not a great rider, I think that is Bahamontes' point. A lot of the truly great grimpeurs won the overall race- Coppi, Gaul, Van Impe, Pantani.......and Bahamontes himself, in 1959. Winning the Mountains prize was their means to a greater end. Virenque amasses points on insignificant climbs and early summits, before the big hitters start firing. When the racing gets really serious, he is either blown out the back of the bunch, or saving himself for the next day's stage.

When he tries 100%, Virenque has shown a lot of courage and ability, not to mention marketing flair! His classic win, on an unsuitable course, was superb- but his Mountains wins have been cheap.
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Old 08-14-04, 01:00 PM   #25
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G'day,

but if you don't turn up to 'play'.....you lose!. This is why the Darwin Ice hockey team are 6 time world champions. They don't have an ice rink, or skates, but every year they send letters to all the NHL teams in the states inviting them to the world championships in darwin...every year, no-one turns up....(except the darwin team), QED...darwin are the world champs. They have a barbie & a piss-up on the beach to celebrate there win!.......Its a huge celebration.......(what this has to do with this thread, i don't know...but hey......trivial crap is trivial crap, no matter where it's posted),

cheers,

Hitchy
Why does this not surprise me about the Aussies?
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