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  1. #26
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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  2. #27
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Thanks. I kinda stopped reading about it after the panel ruled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    The remaining "B" samples were tested at a later time and by a different lab tech, and 4 of those indicated synthetic T. They were done using the carbon isotope test ...
    Au contraire:

    The samples were not subjected to the carbon-isotope ratio detection method ...
    And since they didn't test for it, they did not find synthetic T; they found a suspect T:E ratio.

    Care to amend your earlier post?


    ... the [allowed] 4-to-1 testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio ...
    Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but wasn't the ratio 6:1? (lowered from the previous 8:1?) And given the sloppy methodology of the lab, the actual ratios found would have been informative.
    Last edited by DMF; 10-19-09 at 02:32 PM.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF View Post
    "The samples were not subjected to the carbon-isotope ratio detection method ..."
    And since they didn't test for it, they did not find synthetic T; they found a suspect T:E ratio.

    Care to amend your earlier post?
    According to the article they did test for it using the carbon-isotope test. What your ellipsis above hides is the phrase "during the Tour"; they weren't tested initially since the A samples came out negative. These other B samples were only tested later as a result of the post-Tour hearings.

    But the testing was done by the same lab that had reported the initial positive findings.

  4. #29
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Yep, re-read the article. The T-E ratio does not prove the presence of synthetic T, it only indicates an imbalance.

    His T-E ratio on Stage 17 was 11:1. The max allowed is 4:1.

  5. #30
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    According to the article they did test for it using the carbon-isotope test. What your ellipsis above hides is the phrase "during the Tour";
    You are correct; I should have read more closely. NO isotope testing took place "during the Tour". However, the article does not say that the other seven B samples were subjected to isotope testing. (Nor does it say specifically what tests were done. I was under the impression that the lab wasn't equipped for isotope testing, which was done elsewhere.)

    Perhaps you picked that up from another article?
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

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  6. #31
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    The lab at Chatenay Malabry has the equipment and did all of Landis' tests, including all of the carbon isotope tests. The T-E ratio is a bit interpretive, while the CI tests are generally considered rock-solid and very reliable. They're also more expensive, so they aren't usually done in the first line of tests.

    I'm sure I heard about it through other sources, and that article isn't terribly explicit, but those were the tests they ran.

  7. #32
    Senior Member jaxgtr's Avatar
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    I still think they should test the B samples in another lab to insure that everything is done without the specter of possible foul play.
    Brian | 2013 Cannondale SuperSix 5 | 2014 Trek CrossRip Comp | 2003 Trek 7300
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
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  8. #33
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Agreed.


    Bacciagalupe, thanks for the update!
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  9. #34
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Too late, you can't retest a used sample.

    That's what the hearings were about, by the way. All the procedures were documented, it was all reviewed by the hearings to make sure protocol was followed and the tests were done correctly, and examined thoroughly by the arbitration panel. The panel found that although there were errors, they did not invalidate the core finding; and the CAS agreed. CAS, by the way, has in fact overturned other rulings due to factors like protocol violations.

    And let's face it, after an exhaustive set of hearings and an 80 page ruling, anyone who doubts the ruling was not going to change their mind due to any sort of additional evidence.

  10. #35
    Senior Member daxr's Avatar
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    My thoughts on Landis? Tired. I read his book and followed the legal stuff, but don't get much out of it either way.

    It is a sad state of affairs where you have to have an "official position" on doping to really enjoy following the sport, particularly in the winter when I watch a lot of old races on the trainer. But I have an official position - a rider who has tested positive I don't really have much interest in seeing anymore. On the other hand, a rider who never tested positive but was suspended through guilt-by-association or some unclear involvement gets the benefit of the doubt. That would include Vino, Ullrich, and Basso, among others.
    "... the age of Happy Motoring is over. Many Americans have already bought their last car -- they just don't know it yet."

    James Howard Kunstler, 2008.

  11. #36
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    Kind of off subject. But is it just me or did Landis all ways look pretty chubby for someone who would (or wouldn't) win the Tour de France?

  12. #37
    Seńor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daxr View Post
    ... That would include Vino, Ullrich, and Basso, among others.
    Scratch Vino from that list. He was definitely caught for homologous blood doping.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  13. #38
    Senior Member dwc032's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvonne View Post
    Kind of off subject. But is it just me or did Landis all ways look pretty chubby for someone who would (or wouldn't) win the Tour de France?
    140 and 5'10 doesnt seem chubby to me? I met him at the Cascade Cycling Classic this summer and he is rail thin. None the les he's still better then 99.999999% of all the people on this forum.

  14. #39
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    I saw Landis race at the Manhattan Beach grand prix this summer. I was excited to see him race and glad he was back in racing.
    I was hoping that since he always claimed he was innocent of doping that he would use his return to professional cycling as redemption and proof that he could race clean and do well.
    Before the race started there were lots of people in and around the racer staging area who were cheering Landis and saying things like "go Floyd" and "good luck Floyd". They were ALL very supportive and encouraging.
    When they called the racers to the line Landis looked apathetic and disinterested.
    The race started and on the first lap he was in second place. From that point on he fell back and never once looked like he was trying to race hard.
    Most guys had suffering and determination on their faces and Floyd looked like he couldnt care less.
    I think he finished about 50th out of about 75 racers.
    Pretty lame in my opinion.

    I never had an opinion on his innocence or guilt in the TDF issue but I really gave him the benefit of the doubt in his return and was fully prepared to let him redeem himself.
    He didnt.

    I dont expect much from this guy in the future except more excuses.

  15. #40
    Senior Member dwc032's Avatar
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    When I saw him at the Cascade Cycling Classis Crit, he looked exactly the way you described him apathetic and disinterested. He was in second place and soon fell back to close to last by the time the race ended. No matter what hes still one of my favorite riders. He isnt doing to well in the Tour of Southland, I think hes like 75th out of a 125?

  16. #41
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    OK, here's what happened. He signed a one year deal with the devil to ride for OUCH because they fixed his hip for a rock bottom price. He thinks the team is full of scrubs not worth his empty water bottle so he figures "I'm going to throw out the boat anchor for a year and come back to tear it up in 2010 on a different team." I kid, I kid. I like the guy.

  17. #42
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvonne View Post
    OK, here's what happened. He signed a one year deal with the devil to ride for OUCH because they fixed his hip for a rock bottom price. He thinks the team is full of scrubs not worth his empty water bottle so he figures "I'm going to throw out the boat anchor for a year and come back to tear it up in 2010 on a different team." I kid, I kid. I like the guy.

    The story above is probably true. He seems to be a user.

    --Pun very much intended.


    I don't why anyone has any patience with him anymore. The guy really has a really a lot of balls to whine about politics in cycling recently --as if it could explain why he likely won't ride the Tour de France anymore. He's a cheat who got caught. He lost during a protracted appeals process where he and his team of guys showed their true colors... And still he refuses to admit any wrongdoing. What a jerk.
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  18. #43
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    Still, you have to appreciate the comedy provided during the Landis hearings by, among others, the French lab technician who admitted that she'd whited out a test result "because she knew it was wrong" and wrote in another value that she liked better. Or words to that effect; it's a while ago now.

  19. #44
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
    Still, you have to appreciate the comedy provided during the Landis hearings by, among others, the French lab technician who admitted that she'd whited out a test result "because she knew it was wrong" and wrote in another value that she liked better. Or words to that effect; it's a while ago now.
    Lets add this gem to the already impressive list of flimsy/inaccurate pro-Landis argument.
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  20. #45
    Senior Member dwc032's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvonne View Post
    OK, here's what happened. He signed a one year deal with the devil to ride for OUCH because they fixed his hip for a rock bottom price. He thinks the team is full of scrubs not worth his empty water bottle so he figures "I'm going to throw out the boat anchor for a year and come back to tear it up in 2010 on a different team." I kid, I kid. I like the guy.
    I also like him and hope he comes back in 2010 and does well. I heard that he might be going to Rock Racing?

  21. #46
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    I don't get it. Assuming he was always a very strong rider, surely a lack of heart and capable team mates alone can't explain how rubbish he is now? Or are we to assume that he's always a mediocre rider jacked up by doping?

  22. #47
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monosierra View Post
    I don't get it. Assuming he was always a very strong rider, surely a lack of heart and capable team mates alone can't explain how rubbish he is now? Or are we to assume that he's always a mediocre rider jacked up by doping?
    I'd assume it's a lot of factors: hip replacement, weaker team, less motivation, extensive time off the bike etc. Doping may be a part of it, but I have some doubts that doping alone really constitutes the difference between a domestique and a Tour winner. Also, if you look at some riders who were caught and are likely/allegedly currently clean (e.g. Basso, Millar) their standings didn't drop nearly as precipitously as Landis'.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I'd assume it's a lot of factors: hip replacement, weaker team, less motivation, extensive time off the bike etc. Doping may be a part of it, but I have some doubts that doping alone really constitutes the difference between a domestique and a Tour winner. Also, if you look at some riders who were caught and are likely/allegedly currently clean (e.g. Basso, Millar) their standings didn't drop nearly as precipitously as Landis'.
    True. He seemed a very optimistic and self-depreciating guy in interviews. Thought he would have more fight in him. He certainly sounds like the world owes him now. Maybe he feels it is unfair that he has been singled out?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau View Post
    Lets add this gem to the already impressive list of flimsy/inaccurate pro-Landis argument.

    281. WADA TD2003LCOC requires that,
    Any forensic corrections that need to be made to the document should be
    done with a single line through and the change should be initialled and
    dated by the individual making the change. No white out or erasure that
    obliterates the original entry is acceptable.
    282. The testimony reveals that a forensic correction is a term used to deal with
    correcting mistakes on a laboratory document. In particular, if a mistake is
    made on a document, this error must be crossed out, initialled and corrected.
    There should be no obliterations or use of whiteout. The purpose for these
    forensic corrections is so that it can be read in the future.
    283. At Exhibit 24, USADA0200 there are several improper corrections made to the
    laboratory documents including improper crossing out, missing dates and
    initials when crossing out occurred. There is another error at Exhibit 24
    USADA 0008 where the wrong sample number is written down. In total, the
    Respondent alleges that the LNDD has committed 39 different errors within the
    lab documentation package. For the sake of expediency the Panel will not refer
    to each individual error.
    284. Dr. Goldberger the director of a forensic toxicology laboratory and the current
    president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences in his testimony
    indicated that the pattern of mistakes in the data packages concerns him. It was
    his opinion that he would as a result not trust the reliability of the report and
    test results in this case.
    285. In light of the above, the Panel concludes that the LNDD’s non-forensic changes
    are not in accordance with the ISL and WADA Technical Document and a
    departure has been established. The Respondent has therefore rebutted the
    presumption in favour of the Lab found in Article 18 of the UCI Regulations.
    Under the same Article it is now for the Claimant to establish that the departure
    did not cause the AAF.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
    281. WADA TD2003LCOC requires that,
    Any forensic corrections that need to be made to the document should be
    done with a single line through and the change should be initialled and
    dated by the individual making the change. No white out or erasure that
    obliterates the original entry is acceptable.
    282. The testimony reveals that a forensic correction is a term used to deal with
    correcting mistakes on a laboratory document. In particular, if a mistake is
    made on a document, this error must be crossed out, initialled and corrected.
    There should be no obliterations or use of whiteout. The purpose for these
    forensic corrections is so that it can be read in the future.
    283. At Exhibit 24, USADA0200 there are several improper corrections made to the
    laboratory documents including improper crossing out, missing dates and
    initials when crossing out occurred. There is another error at Exhibit 24
    USADA 0008 where the wrong sample number is written down. In total, the
    Respondent alleges that the LNDD has committed 39 different errors within the
    lab documentation package. For the sake of expediency the Panel will not refer
    to each individual error.
    284. Dr. Goldberger the director of a forensic toxicology laboratory and the current
    president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences in his testimony
    indicated that the pattern of mistakes in the data packages concerns him. It was
    his opinion that he would as a result not trust the reliability of the report and
    test results in this case.
    285. In light of the above, the Panel concludes that the LNDD’s non-forensic changes
    are not in accordance with the ISL and WADA Technical Document and a
    departure has been established. The Respondent has therefore rebutted the
    presumption in favour of the Lab found in Article 18 of the UCI Regulations.
    Under the same Article it is now for the Claimant to establish that the departure
    did not cause the AAF.
    Sounds like solid evidence. I like it when people actually bother to post proof to back what they're saying, instead of just relying on a perceived notion of what's going on.

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