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  1. #251
    Senior Member datlas's Avatar
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    I am a doubter....I was doubting that this thread and link therein would be about Lance.

    Of course, I was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
    never underestimate the idiocy of BF.

  2. #252
    fixed for the long haul 40 Cent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    and then there's the fact that he coerced his teammates to either use or get the hell off his team.
    This is the most egregious part. Not only is he not an innocent victim, as the OP suggests, he's the very opposite. He's the tyrant. Those who don't think he's guilty at this point just don't want to know.

  3. #253
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Moved from Road to Pro.
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

  4. #254
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuxbailey View Post
    I am indifferent if an adult professional athlete choose to jeopardize his/her health to win. It is a show for entertainment. But what about the examples that they set for amateurs as well as kids in school. Would you say the the same thing to someone who are competing in high school that it is okay to dope in other to win a medal, or a college scholarship?
    The shallow thinkers overlook anything beyond "did" or "didn't"
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  5. #255
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halebopp View Post
    When I heard the Armstrong news last night, I started thinking, then started to get a little emotional...and I think I know why.

    I've obviously known he's been doping for years, this changes nothing and is nothing new.*Since probably 2007 I've felt nothing but mild contempt for the guy (especially as everyone realized what a jerk he can be). Most of us knew the score, regardless whether he ever got nailed. But the process has been so drawn out.*This had a feeling of finality to it, which made my mind start wandering.

    It wandered back to around 4th grade, following *that 1999 tour just as I was beginnig to really get into cycling..riding around the neighborhood as fast as I could on my bright red kids bike (with the coaster brake!)

    Then I remembered doing yard work all summer to save up for a trek road bike like lance had, only to be told at the bike shop that my $275 wasn't quuiiiite enough, and settling for an on sale mountain bike instead.*

    But I still rode it all over while pretending I was racing, pretending that the hill up the street was a legendary alpine climb. All the while wearing a yellow t-shirt to pretend I was like Lance, winning the tour. I practiced my victory salutes at the "summit".

    Every July, in 4th grade...5th grade...and on, I'd wake up early those three weeks and run down to the computer, refreshing the live text updates from that day's stage. I was always dying to see who would win, and how Lance was doing. Those names became legendary to me...Lance, Hincapie Ullrich, Beloki, Pantini, Zable, and so on.

    But they all doped.

    The news tonight made me think about back then. About how exciting I found all that. How inspired I was. And then, how devastated my 4th grade self would be today.

    I understand the realities of doping, especially in that era, and I recognize the the motivations for athletes to do so. But last night I was reminded how beautiful and joyful the sport can be, unencumbered by the (rightful)*cynicism that accompanies it today.





    "Meyer Wolfsheim? “Lance Armstrong?” No, he’s a gambler cyclist." Gatsby hesitated, then added coolly: "He’s the man who fixed the World’s Series doped to win the Tour de France back in 1919 1999."

    "Fixed the World’s Series Doped to win the Tour de France?" I repeated.

    The idea staggered me. I remembered, of course, that the World’s Series Tour de France had been fixed in 1919 1999, but if I had thought if it all I would have thought of it as a thing that merely happened, the end of some inevitable chain. It never occurred to me that one man could start to play with the faith of fifty million people – with the single-mindedness of a burglar blowing a safe.

    "How did he happen to do that?" I asked after a minute.

    "He just saw the opportunity."
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  6. #256
    Senior Member datlas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    Moved from Road to Pro.
    I had no doubt that this would happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
    never underestimate the idiocy of BF.

  7. #257
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Belief in Lance Armstrong to qualify for religious status

    http://newsthump.com/2012/10/11/beli...igious-status/

    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  8. #258
    Dropped again guadzilla's Avatar
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    ^^^ Oh, that was brilliant.

    "If someone can find a way of likening the loss of a testicle to being crucified, then this movement could run for a couple of thousand years."

    Damn, that writer knows his craft!
    Peace is knowing someone else is suffering more than you are.

  9. #259
    GATC
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    I don't doubt Lance doped but I do doubt that his posse of accusers uniformly stopped doping in '06 even after continuing w/ Lance's Directeur de physiologique (is that the term?) so I think there is a lot of denial going on also among those hoping to roll over on Lance and walk away looking clean.

    And I doubt that USADA knows squat about squat w/ the kind of experts quoted in the NYT

    " blood values in which the likelihood “of occurring naturally was less than one in a million”"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sp...pagewanted=all

    That's the exact kind of innumeracy that gets DNA evidence thrown out of court (yes I know this is not a legal proceeding). But a) being a pro cyclist itself has a natural occurrence of less than one in a million, and b) there are less than a million pro cyclists so that is a purely fabricated figure not really comparable to anything.

    Anyway, I know USADA is advocating their side (as do prosecutors who get their evidence thrown out by misrepresenting it), not trying to be a balanced referee. And Lance gave in, so USADA does get the final word. It's hard to let them put that kind of crap out there and have gullible journalists (like the NYT) gobble it up and spread it out farther.

  10. #260
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I don't know. In the age of coming down hard on perjury I doubt so many guys would take a chance of lying in an affidavit to say they used to dope but now they're clean.

  11. #261
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox Farm View Post
    Unfortunately no. But I wonder who will be deemed the winners of those 7-tours now?
    This is a non-issue. Just don't award those 7-tours to anyone. Vacate the darn thing with an "asterik" stating how the whole era was tainted.
    Regards,

    Jed

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I don't know. In the age of coming down hard on perjury I doubt so many guys would take a chance of lying in an affidavit to say they used to dope but now they're clean.
    I don't. Maybe they are clean now. I seriously doubt they were clean when they said they were. Especially when some were riding at their best when they claimed to be clean.

    Also, it depends how they were approached & interviewed. It is possible they were given an easy out to not discuss anything past a certain point. And, that would be particularly true during the grand jury proceedings.

  13. #263
    Senior Member Nachoman's Avatar
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    Even in the cycling community I think there will still be a lot of people that believe in Lance. They won't read the USADA decision. They won't read the supporting affidavits or examine any evidence. All they'll do is listen to 30 second sound bites on Sports Center and assume that there are two sides to every story.
    .
    .

    Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

  14. #264
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgilchrist View Post
    Did Lance dope? I don't know. But I do know that USADA doesn't know either and for some reason is out to throw innuendo and can't support their position or paper with their backup documents.
    I hope you don't suffocate with your head that far in the sand.

    Let's look at the available evidence:

    That he doped:

    1) 26 witnesses claiming personal knowledge; most of which stand to lose greatly by their testimony;

    2) $1million to Ferrari, some of it even after Armstrong swore that he was no longer working with Ferrari;

    3) Positive test for steroids in 1999, (which he got out of with a backdated TUE)

    4) Positive tests for EPO from the 1999 TDF, when samples tested after an EPO test became available.

    5) Suspicious Test for EPO in the 2001 Tour of Suisse (which would be positive by today's WADA standard) that went away after Armstrong paid the UCI $100,000.

    6) Medical waste discovered coming from USPS bus.

    7) Documented incidents of Armstrong avoiding testers, and refusing instructions from Testers when they did find him.

    8) Blood tests in 2009-2010 showing suppressed reticulocytes, and abnormal plasma volumes, both evidence of blood doping.

    9) Multiple documented attempts to intimidate, and or retaliate against, witnesses,

    10) Every other person on the TDF podium with Armstrong shown to have used PEDs.

    That he didn't:

    1) Numerous negative tests (which have been shown to be easily beaten)

    2) Armstrong's own statements.


    Then again, perhaps you should keep your head buried so that you don't get it knocked off by the avalanche of evidence coming down.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    I hope you don't suffocate with your head that far in the sand.

    Let's look at the available evidence:

    That he doped:

    1) 26 witnesses claiming personal knowledge; most of which stand to lose greatly by their testimony;

    2) $1million to Ferrari, some of it even after Armstrong swore that he was no longer working with Ferrari;

    3) Positive test for steroids in 1999, (which he got out of with a backdated TUE)

    4) Positive tests for EPO from the 1999 TDF, when samples tested after an EPO test became available.

    5) Suspicious Test for EPO in the 2001 Tour of Suisse (which would be positive by today's WADA standard) that went away after Armstrong paid the UCI $100,000.

    6) Medical waste discovered coming from USPS bus.

    7) Documented incidents of Armstrong avoiding testers, and refusing instructions from Testers when they did find him.

    8) Blood tests in 2009-2010 showing suppressed reticulocytes, and abnormal plasma volumes, both evidence of blood doping.

    9) Multiple documented attempts to intimidate, and or retaliate against, witnesses,

    10) Every other person on the TDF podium with Armstrong shown to have used PEDs.

    That he didn't:

    1) Numerous negative tests (which have been shown to be easily beaten)

    2) Armstrong's own statements.


    Then again, perhaps you should keep your head buried so that you don't get it knocked off by the avalanche of evidence coming down.
    Brilliantly said....with the highlighted point being the primary reason why this dick should go down hard. If the so called logical explanation is that everyone did it and therefore its ok that he did too, how come he's spent a lifetime trying to attack others in order to protect his so called "innocence". The bugger got what was coming to him....case closed.

  16. #266
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nachoman View Post
    Even in the cycling community I think there will still be a lot of people that believe in Lance. They won't read the USADA decision. They won't read the supporting affidavits or examine any evidence. All they'll do is listen to 30 second sound bites on Sports Center and assume that there are two sides to every story.
    Meh. There will always be idiots. And idiots can be fun
    Regards,

    Jed

  17. #267
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    They'll be somebody come along fairly soon with about 100 posts that will say something sympathetic to Armstrong.

    Livestrong still has lots of money for interns.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  18. #268
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    This is a non-issue. Just don't award those 7-tours to anyone. Vacate the darn thing with an "asterik" stating how the whole era was tainted.
    I don't think they have ever left the winners slot empty yet. But they have left second vacated.

    The other side is thay have DQ'd the top 4 finishers before and 5th ended up first.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  19. #269
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    I don't think they have ever left the winners slot empty yet. But they have left second vacated.

    The other side is thay have DQ'd the top 4 finishers before and 5th ended up first.
    Well, we have never been on this road before either, where the bulk of the top echelon of the pro peloton has been proven to be really dirty.

    This is uncharted waters, and it should serve as a lesson to future generations, who might want to learn about the TdF, say in 100years, if they they could see what a messed up period that era was.
    Regards,

    Jed

  20. #270
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    Well, we have never been on this road before either, where the bulk of the top echelon of the pro peloton has been proven to be really dirty.

    This is uncharted waters, and it should serve as a lesson to future generations, who might want to learn about the TdF, say in 100years, if they they could see what a messed up period that era was.
    At least with constantly changing courses and conditions and just race tactics, there isn't a set number for time that future generations will have to beat like numbers of home runs or impossible to beat world records when it comes to the Tour.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  21. #271
    GATC
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    At least with constantly changing courses and conditions and just race tactics, there isn't a set number for time that future generations will have to beat like numbers of home runs or impossible to beat world records when it comes to the Tour.
    Around 6 watts/kg is a 'clean' physiological limit for power production. Excelsior ... to a point.
    Last edited by HardyWeinberg; 10-11-12 at 03:49 PM.

  22. #272
    Senior Member JohnnyCyclist's Avatar
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    What to do with your Lance jerseys ...

    Show everyone what an ass you are. Wear them with a pair of half-moon bibs!

    http://halfmooncycling.com/products/half-moon-bib

  23. #273
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    Sounds like it all went beyond my wildest imaginings in scope and arrogance-

    You wonder how such an extensive flagrant and frequent violation of ethics could go on WITHOUT expecting to surface at some point.

    It's a real disgrace on American cycling-
    and I recall the days when even the Tour De France was scarcely even mentioned in the newspaper and never on television- when the U.S. hadn't won even an Olympic medal in decades and had NO participants at this level of pro cycling. Now we are the pinnacle of scandal- oh well.

    The aggressive little Major Tailors..... New Jersey my pitooty!

  24. #274
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harpon View Post
    Sounds like it all went beyond my wildest imaginings in scope and arrogance-

    You wonder how such an extensive flagrant and frequent violation of ethics could go on WITHOUT expecting to surface at some point.

    It's a real disgrace on American cycling-
    and I recall the days when even the Tour De France was scarcely even mentioned in the newspaper and never on television- when the U.S. hadn't won even an Olympic medal in decades and had NO participants at this level of pro cycling. Now we are the pinnacle of scandal- oh well.

    The aggressive little Major Tailors..... New Jersey my pitooty!

    huh?

  25. #275
    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    I couldn't give a crap less if they all doped. They're big boys who can make their own decisions about what they want to do to their bodies.
    i may have overreacted

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