Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-11-12, 10:01 AM   #251
datlas
Senior Member
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Posts: 18,788
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
I am a doubter....I was doubting that this thread and link therein would be about Lance.

Of course, I was wrong.

datlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 10:11 AM   #252
40 Cent
fixed for the long haul
 
40 Cent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Bikes: 1975 Raleigh Professional, 1990 Cannondale 3.0 Touring bike
Posts: 366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
and then there's the fact that he coerced his teammates to either use or get the hell off his team.
This is the most egregious part. Not only is he not an innocent victim, as the OP suggests, he's the very opposite. He's the tyrant. Those who don't think he's guilty at this point just don't want to know.
40 Cent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 10:13 AM   #253
CbadRider
Administrator
 
CbadRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the bridge with Picard
Bikes: Specialized Allez, Specialized Sirrus
Posts: 5,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Moved from Road to Pro.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerum 525 View Post
Now get on your cheap bike and give me a double century. You walking can of Crisco!!

Forum Guidelines *click here*
CbadRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 10:16 AM   #254
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Posts: 19,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxbailey View Post
I am indifferent if an adult professional athlete choose to jeopardize his/her health to win. It is a show for entertainment. But what about the examples that they set for amateurs as well as kids in school. Would you say the the same thing to someone who are competing in high school that it is okay to dope in other to win a medal, or a college scholarship?
The shallow thinkers overlook anything beyond "did" or "didn't"
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike
Homebrew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 10:23 AM   #255
caloso
Packfodding 3
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Bikes: Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper
Posts: 33,737
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halebopp View Post
When I heard the Armstrong news last night, I started thinking, then started to get a little emotional...and I think I know why.

I've obviously known he's been doping for years, this changes nothing and is nothing new.*Since probably 2007 I've felt nothing but mild contempt for the guy (especially as everyone realized what a jerk he can be). Most of us knew the score, regardless whether he ever got nailed. But the process has been so drawn out.*This had a feeling of finality to it, which made my mind start wandering.

It wandered back to around 4th grade, following *that 1999 tour just as I was beginnig to really get into cycling..riding around the neighborhood as fast as I could on my bright red kids bike (with the coaster brake!)

Then I remembered doing yard work all summer to save up for a trek road bike like lance had, only to be told at the bike shop that my $275 wasn't quuiiiite enough, and settling for an on sale mountain bike instead.*

But I still rode it all over while pretending I was racing, pretending that the hill up the street was a legendary alpine climb. All the while wearing a yellow t-shirt to pretend I was like Lance, winning the tour. I practiced my victory salutes at the "summit".

Every July, in 4th grade...5th grade...and on, I'd wake up early those three weeks and run down to the computer, refreshing the live text updates from that day's stage. I was always dying to see who would win, and how Lance was doing. Those names became legendary to me...Lance, Hincapie Ullrich, Beloki, Pantini, Zable, and so on.

But they all doped.

The news tonight made me think about back then. About how exciting I found all that. How inspired I was. And then, how devastated my 4th grade self would be today.

I understand the realities of doping, especially in that era, and I recognize the the motivations for athletes to do so. But last night I was reminded how beautiful and joyful the sport can be, unencumbered by the (rightful)*cynicism that accompanies it today.





"Meyer Wolfsheim? “Lance Armstrong?” No, he’s a gambler cyclist." Gatsby hesitated, then added coolly: "He’s the man who fixed the World’s Series doped to win the Tour de France back in 1919 1999."

"Fixed the World’s Series Doped to win the Tour de France?" I repeated.

The idea staggered me. I remembered, of course, that the World’s Series Tour de France had been fixed in 1919 1999, but if I had thought if it all I would have thought of it as a thing that merely happened, the end of some inevitable chain. It never occurred to me that one man could start to play with the faith of fifty million people – with the single-mindedness of a burglar blowing a safe.

"How did he happen to do that?" I asked after a minute.

"He just saw the opportunity."
caloso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 10:31 AM   #256
datlas
Senior Member
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Posts: 18,788
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
Moved from Road to Pro.
I had no doubt that this would happen.
datlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 10:49 AM   #257
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Posts: 19,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Belief in Lance Armstrong to qualify for religious status

http://newsthump.com/2012/10/11/beli...igious-status/

__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike
Homebrew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 11:14 AM   #258
guadzilla
Dropped again
 
guadzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A small tropical island
Bikes: Damocles, Shiv, Lynskey, X-Fire, LHT, +
Posts: 3,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^^^ Oh, that was brilliant.

"If someone can find a way of likening the loss of a testicle to being crucified, then this movement could run for a couple of thousand years."

Damn, that writer knows his craft!
guadzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 11:32 AM   #259
HardyWeinberg
GATC
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south Puget Sound
Bikes:
Posts: 7,495
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
I don't doubt Lance doped but I do doubt that his posse of accusers uniformly stopped doping in '06 even after continuing w/ Lance's Directeur de physiologique (is that the term?) so I think there is a lot of denial going on also among those hoping to roll over on Lance and walk away looking clean.

And I doubt that USADA knows squat about squat w/ the kind of experts quoted in the NYT

" blood values in which the likelihood “of occurring naturally was less than one in a million”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sp...pagewanted=all

That's the exact kind of innumeracy that gets DNA evidence thrown out of court (yes I know this is not a legal proceeding). But a) being a pro cyclist itself has a natural occurrence of less than one in a million, and b) there are less than a million pro cyclists so that is a purely fabricated figure not really comparable to anything.

Anyway, I know USADA is advocating their side (as do prosecutors who get their evidence thrown out by misrepresenting it), not trying to be a balanced referee. And Lance gave in, so USADA does get the final word. It's hard to let them put that kind of crap out there and have gullible journalists (like the NYT) gobble it up and spread it out farther.
HardyWeinberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 11:50 AM   #260
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: teh Jersey
Bikes:
Posts: 19,851
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
I don't know. In the age of coming down hard on perjury I doubt so many guys would take a chance of lying in an affidavit to say they used to dope but now they're clean.
gsteinb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 11:57 AM   #261
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Farm View Post
Unfortunately no. But I wonder who will be deemed the winners of those 7-tours now?
This is a non-issue. Just don't award those 7-tours to anyone. Vacate the darn thing with an "asterik" stating how the whole era was tainted.
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 12:13 PM   #262
daveF
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I don't know. In the age of coming down hard on perjury I doubt so many guys would take a chance of lying in an affidavit to say they used to dope but now they're clean.
I don't. Maybe they are clean now. I seriously doubt they were clean when they said they were. Especially when some were riding at their best when they claimed to be clean.

Also, it depends how they were approached & interviewed. It is possible they were given an easy out to not discuss anything past a certain point. And, that would be particularly true during the grand jury proceedings.
daveF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 12:43 PM   #263
Nachoman
Senior Member
 
Nachoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Point Loma, CA
Bikes: Bill Holland (Road-Ti), Fuji Roubaix Pro (back-up), Bike Friday (folder), Co-Motion (tandem) & Trek 750 (hybrid)
Posts: 14,041
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Even in the cycling community I think there will still be a lot of people that believe in Lance. They won't read the USADA decision. They won't read the supporting affidavits or examine any evidence. All they'll do is listen to 30 second sound bites on Sports Center and assume that there are two sides to every story.
__________________
.
.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
Nachoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 12:54 PM   #264
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,131
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgilchrist View Post
Did Lance dope? I don't know. But I do know that USADA doesn't know either and for some reason is out to throw innuendo and can't support their position or paper with their backup documents.
I hope you don't suffocate with your head that far in the sand.

Let's look at the available evidence:

That he doped:

1) 26 witnesses claiming personal knowledge; most of which stand to lose greatly by their testimony;

2) $1million to Ferrari, some of it even after Armstrong swore that he was no longer working with Ferrari;

3) Positive test for steroids in 1999, (which he got out of with a backdated TUE)

4) Positive tests for EPO from the 1999 TDF, when samples tested after an EPO test became available.

5) Suspicious Test for EPO in the 2001 Tour of Suisse (which would be positive by today's WADA standard) that went away after Armstrong paid the UCI $100,000.

6) Medical waste discovered coming from USPS bus.

7) Documented incidents of Armstrong avoiding testers, and refusing instructions from Testers when they did find him.

8) Blood tests in 2009-2010 showing suppressed reticulocytes, and abnormal plasma volumes, both evidence of blood doping.

9) Multiple documented attempts to intimidate, and or retaliate against, witnesses,

10) Every other person on the TDF podium with Armstrong shown to have used PEDs.

That he didn't:

1) Numerous negative tests (which have been shown to be easily beaten)

2) Armstrong's own statements.


Then again, perhaps you should keep your head buried so that you don't get it knocked off by the avalanche of evidence coming down.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 02:12 PM   #265
EvenKeel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: S.E. USA
Bikes:
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I hope you don't suffocate with your head that far in the sand.

Let's look at the available evidence:

That he doped:

1) 26 witnesses claiming personal knowledge; most of which stand to lose greatly by their testimony;

2) $1million to Ferrari, some of it even after Armstrong swore that he was no longer working with Ferrari;

3) Positive test for steroids in 1999, (which he got out of with a backdated TUE)

4) Positive tests for EPO from the 1999 TDF, when samples tested after an EPO test became available.

5) Suspicious Test for EPO in the 2001 Tour of Suisse (which would be positive by today's WADA standard) that went away after Armstrong paid the UCI $100,000.

6) Medical waste discovered coming from USPS bus.

7) Documented incidents of Armstrong avoiding testers, and refusing instructions from Testers when they did find him.

8) Blood tests in 2009-2010 showing suppressed reticulocytes, and abnormal plasma volumes, both evidence of blood doping.

9) Multiple documented attempts to intimidate, and or retaliate against, witnesses,

10) Every other person on the TDF podium with Armstrong shown to have used PEDs.

That he didn't:

1) Numerous negative tests (which have been shown to be easily beaten)

2) Armstrong's own statements.


Then again, perhaps you should keep your head buried so that you don't get it knocked off by the avalanche of evidence coming down.
Brilliantly said....with the highlighted point being the primary reason why this dick should go down hard. If the so called logical explanation is that everyone did it and therefore its ok that he did too, how come he's spent a lifetime trying to attack others in order to protect his so called "innocence". The bugger got what was coming to him....case closed.
EvenKeel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 02:43 PM   #266
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachoman View Post
Even in the cycling community I think there will still be a lot of people that believe in Lance. They won't read the USADA decision. They won't read the supporting affidavits or examine any evidence. All they'll do is listen to 30 second sound bites on Sports Center and assume that there are two sides to every story.
Meh. There will always be idiots. And idiots can be fun
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 02:49 PM   #267
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,131
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
They'll be somebody come along fairly soon with about 100 posts that will say something sympathetic to Armstrong.

Livestrong still has lots of money for interns.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 03:04 PM   #268
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
This is a non-issue. Just don't award those 7-tours to anyone. Vacate the darn thing with an "asterik" stating how the whole era was tainted.
I don't think they have ever left the winners slot empty yet. But they have left second vacated.

The other side is thay have DQ'd the top 4 finishers before and 5th ended up first.
Keith99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 03:13 PM   #269
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
I don't think they have ever left the winners slot empty yet. But they have left second vacated.

The other side is thay have DQ'd the top 4 finishers before and 5th ended up first.
Well, we have never been on this road before either, where the bulk of the top echelon of the pro peloton has been proven to be really dirty.

This is uncharted waters, and it should serve as a lesson to future generations, who might want to learn about the TdF, say in 100years, if they they could see what a messed up period that era was.
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 03:28 PM   #270
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,474
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
Well, we have never been on this road before either, where the bulk of the top echelon of the pro peloton has been proven to be really dirty.

This is uncharted waters, and it should serve as a lesson to future generations, who might want to learn about the TdF, say in 100years, if they they could see what a messed up period that era was.
At least with constantly changing courses and conditions and just race tactics, there isn't a set number for time that future generations will have to beat like numbers of home runs or impossible to beat world records when it comes to the Tour.
himespau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 03:37 PM   #271
HardyWeinberg
GATC
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south Puget Sound
Bikes:
Posts: 7,495
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
At least with constantly changing courses and conditions and just race tactics, there isn't a set number for time that future generations will have to beat like numbers of home runs or impossible to beat world records when it comes to the Tour.
Around 6 watts/kg is a 'clean' physiological limit for power production. Excelsior ... to a point.

Last edited by HardyWeinberg; 10-11-12 at 03:49 PM.
HardyWeinberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 04:01 PM   #272
JohnnyCyclist
Senior Member
 
JohnnyCyclist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
What to do with your Lance jerseys ...

Show everyone what an ass you are. Wear them with a pair of half-moon bibs!

http://halfmooncycling.com/products/half-moon-bib
JohnnyCyclist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 04:16 PM   #273
harpon
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sounds like it all went beyond my wildest imaginings in scope and arrogance-

You wonder how such an extensive flagrant and frequent violation of ethics could go on WITHOUT expecting to surface at some point.

It's a real disgrace on American cycling-
and I recall the days when even the Tour De France was scarcely even mentioned in the newspaper and never on television- when the U.S. hadn't won even an Olympic medal in decades and had NO participants at this level of pro cycling. Now we are the pinnacle of scandal- oh well.

The aggressive little Major Tailors..... New Jersey my pitooty!
harpon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 04:21 PM   #274
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: teh Jersey
Bikes:
Posts: 19,851
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by harpon View Post
Sounds like it all went beyond my wildest imaginings in scope and arrogance-

You wonder how such an extensive flagrant and frequent violation of ethics could go on WITHOUT expecting to surface at some point.

It's a real disgrace on American cycling-
and I recall the days when even the Tour De France was scarcely even mentioned in the newspaper and never on television- when the U.S. hadn't won even an Olympic medal in decades and had NO participants at this level of pro cycling. Now we are the pinnacle of scandal- oh well.

The aggressive little Major Tailors..... New Jersey my pitooty!

huh?
gsteinb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-12, 04:30 PM   #275
Laggard
Lance Hater
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Bikes:
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
I couldn't give a crap less if they all doped. They're big boys who can make their own decisions about what they want to do to their bodies.
Laggard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:21 PM.