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  1. #326
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    What Lance jerseys? I've never had any to begin with.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  2. #327
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike56 View Post
    The truth is,if you investigated everybody's life on this forum with the intensity,time and money that they used against Lance Armstrong,he would look like a saint compared to most of us,myself included
    Hmmmm .... care to confess ?
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  3. #328
    Senior Member bgilchrist's Avatar
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    What happens to the Accusers?

    So what happens to the accusers?

    Do Hincapie, Andreu, Hamilton, Landis et al all have to relinquish any title they won throughout their career as a result of their confessions?

    Do they have to return any prize money won?

    Are they personally and monetarily responsible for any prize money won by their teams as a result of their performances?

    What about any profits resulting from their confessions (book deals, interview fees)? Will these be used to compensate for their “cheating”?

    Will USADA strip them of their titles/awards if they don’t voluntarily relinquish them?

    Will USADA be as vigorous in their insistence to UCI that these individuals be stripped as they are with Armstrong?

  4. #329
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    6 month ban.

  5. #330
    Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins tagaproject6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike56 View Post
    The truth is,if you investigated everybody's life on this forum with the intensity,time and money that they used against Lance Armstrong,he would look like a saint compared to most of us,myself included
    Incorrect! Okay...maybe just you.
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  6. #331
    Senior Member bgilchrist's Avatar
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    Going forward? What if they have retired?

    Why is USADA suggesting that Armstrong be stripped of all titles if they aren't prepared to do the same to those that pointed fingers and admitted?

  7. #332
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    most of them didn't win much of note

  8. #333
    Annoyed. Andy Somnifac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCyclist View Post
    Prior to USADA's report, I was saying "USADA sucks". I've done a 180 since.

    The fallout will be far reaching ... and it's just begun.
    Same. Prior to the report's release, it just didn't look good. But the report, and all the affidavits.... Ouch. They had their ducks in a row.
    Meh.

  9. #334
    Senior Member bgilchrist's Avatar
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    No, but wasn't Hincapie a national champion? What about team awards? Is there a breakpoint for what is worthy of being revoked? (i.e. you have to give back a major event/national championship, but you can keep regional titles?)

  10. #335
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgilchrist View Post
    Why is USADA suggesting that Armstrong be stripped of all titles if they aren't prepared to do the same to those that pointed fingers and admitted?
    Because they cooperated, and were seen as small fish who were minor participants in doping. Armstrong was a major player involved in every level of the doping program, not just for himself, but as part of the team's overall program, involved in coverups, trafficking etc ....
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  11. #336
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgilchrist View Post
    No, but wasn't Hincapie a national champion? What about team awards? Is there a breakpoint for what is worthy of being revoked? (i.e. you have to give back a major event/national championship, but you can keep regional titles?)
    he rode the tour 17 times. no one cares about him beating up on a bunch of domestic pros

  12. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Because they cooperated, and were seen as small fish who were minor participants in doping. Armstrong was a major player involved in every level of the doping program, not just for himself, but as part of the team's overall program, involved in coverups, trafficking etc ....
    In reading the affidavits, its pretty obvious that EVERYONE on the team was at the very least complicit in covering up the doping practices. Not to mention most of them on some occasion helped each other evade doping controls. Many even went so far as to provide others with banned substances. They shared their stock of EPO and Hgh, etc. If this were cocaine, they'd all be accused of trafficking and conspiracy.

    This is all shades of grey. When you have Danielson recounting how he was saddened that he couldn't be on the same doping schedule as the "A" team in time to do well, you can't say that he (and others) were simply pawns in Armstrong/Brunyeel's master plan. These guys, frankly wanted to dope in the same way they wanted the same salary and perks as other riders.

    Also, $10 says the team leader and DS in every other team at that time were requiring the same of their teams. Do you think Ulrich didn't push his domestiques to dope so they'd be there at the end? or Riis said "no" when asked by a rider for transfusions? Highly unlikely...

  13. #338
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Actually I believe they are being stripped of results during the time frame in which they admitted to PED use.

    Leipheimer accepted a suspension from September 1 and was disqualified from results from June 1999 to July 30, 2006, and from July 7 to July 29, 2007.
    Hincapie accepted a suspension from September 1 and disqualification from results from May 31, 2004 to July 31, 2006.
    Vande Velde accepted a suspension from September 9 and disqualification from results from June 4, 2004 to April 31, 2006.
    Zabriskie accepted a suspension from September 1 and disqualification from results from May 31, 2003 to July 31, 2006.
    Danielson accepted a suspension from September 1 and disqualification from results from March 1, 2005 to September 23, 2006.
    Barry accepted a suspension from September 10 and disqualification from results from May 13, 2003 to July 31, 2006.

    All declined to participate in the 2012 Olympic Games and were praised by USADA for confessing and accepting their suspensions.
    Source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/six-...ans-from-usada

  14. #339
    Annoyed. Andy Somnifac's Avatar
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    Not all those who provided testimony were finger pointers. They were offered the 6 month ban if they cooperated. LA would have been given leniency had he cooperated as well. But he maintains his story, in spite of the overwhelming evidence against him.
    Meh.

  15. #340
    Senior Member bgilchrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Somnifac View Post
    Not all those who provided testimony were finger pointers. They were offered the 6 month ban if they cooperated. LA would have been given leniency had he cooperated as well. But he maintains his story, in spite of the overwhelming evidence against him.
    You honestly believe that?

  16. #341
    Senior Member Nachoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    Actually I believe they are being stripped of results during the time frame in which they admitted to PED use.
    Source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/six-...ans-from-usada
    Interesting.
    .
    .

    Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

  17. #342
    Annoyed. Andy Somnifac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgilchrist View Post
    You honestly believe that?
    Yes, that's how these things work. You cooperate, you will still face sanctions, but they will be less. Would it have been a simple as a 6 month suspension? No, but it would have been less than a lifetime ban, and the stripping of 7 Grand Tour titles.

    Remember, it's not just that he's banned from cycling. He's banned from anything that USADA has jurisdiction over. He'd gone back to doing triathlons, which he can no longer do if they're sanctioned by USAT.

    I'd guess he could have cooperated and got a suspension in the time frame of 2-3 years, retroactive to his last UCI race, and a fine.
    Meh.

  18. #343
    Dropped again guadzilla's Avatar
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    The USADA has done something that the UCI, Italian cops & French cops have been unable to do for years. For that, I stand up and applaud them.

    Travid Tygart has withstood death threats to do his job. For that, I stand up and applaud him. He's a hundred times the MAN Lance Armstrong tries to be.
    Peace is knowing someone else is suffering more than you are.

  19. #344
    Dropped again guadzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baccilus View Post
    "Sports" exist for a reason. This is not it. The path that you are suggesting will ultimately lead to artificial arms and legs and what not. Do you want sports to go there? Will it be fun then? Simply put, will you feel good about yourself after beating your own personal record after taking a performance enhancing drug?
    Thank you. You've very concisely put into words what I felt but was struggling to elucidate.

    This is sports we are talking about here - what we used to play as kids. Clean, healthy competition. Not a f'ing arms race. What next? Genetically breed cyclists? That isnt sports, that is business. That is not why I play sports, and that is not why I follow pro sports.
    Peace is knowing someone else is suffering more than you are.

  20. #345
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Let's take these a few at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bgilchrist View Post
    So what happens to the accusers?

    Do Hincapie, Andreu, Hamilton, Landis et al all have to relinquish any title they won throughout their career as a result of their confessions?

    Do they have to return any prize money won?

    Are they personally and monetarily responsible for any prize money won by their teams as a result of their performances?
    They are all banned for six months, AND have all also accepted the loss of results for the time periods in which they have admitted to doping. In some cases, the consequences are significant - for example, Zabriskie is no longer a stage winner in the Vuelta nor a prologue winner of the Tour. I believe Levi loses his 2007 Tour of California win. All of these forfeitures do entail the return of prize money won.

    As for last paragraph, boy is that a bit murky or what? Are you suggesting that they should be made to pay back prize money won by the team in events that they did not win but in which they rode as domestiques? If so, that's patently absurd - any such liability is impossible to calculate and has no legal standing.

    What about any profits resulting from their confessions (book deals, interview fees)? Will these be used to compensate for their “cheating”?
    People gotta make a living. What they do is up to them, again there is no standing for any agency to demand that income from book deals, speaking fees etc. be forfeited. Personally, I could give a rats ass. I hope Tyler makes a million off of his book, he's got enough debts to pay. The point of doping sanctions is not to harm the ability of individuals to make a living, it's to solve the doping problem.

    Will USADA strip them of their titles/awards if they don’t voluntarily relinquish them?
    A distinction without difference. The titles are stripped, not relinquished. The only choice they have is to accept their sanctions.

    Will USADA be as vigorous in their insistence to UCI that these individuals be stripped as they are with Armstrong?
    What do you mean by "as vigorous?" In each case, the recommended sanction is forwarded to the UCI, which must then choose whether to ratify it or appeal. There's no degree of difference here, it's a legal document in both cases, there's no clear definition of what "vigor" would mean in that context. The Armstrong case is both high-profile and contains lots of evidence. The sanctions of the whistleblowers are certainly less contentious, because they are based on voluntary confessions, and because they involve much lower-profile riders. It's really not that complicated.

    If you are suggesting, however, that USADA is somehow obligated to hand them sanctions as SEVERE as those given Armstrong, you're just plain wrong. Cooperation means a lighter sanction because, again, the point of anti-doping work is solve the doping problem, not wreck lives or careers. Cooperative witnesses get lighter sentences because there needs to be some reason for people to come forward with confessions in evidence. The exact same reasoning is used in the criminal justice system - it's good policy and it reinforces that it's supposed to be about something bigger than retribution.

  21. #346
    Oldie, just not here! Onegun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike56 View Post
    webmaster@USADA.org
    719 785 2000 main number
    ROFL!! Do you even know who/what a webmaster is? Why the frac would you email the guy who designed their web site??!!
    BICYCLE - [bahy-si-kuhl] - Noun :> A medical device used to correct the common geriatric condition of OFS, (Old, Fat & Slow), in a manner that does not induce brain-decaying boredom like walking or running.

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  22. #347
    Dropped again guadzilla's Avatar
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    Carmichael and CTS

    In all this noise about Pharmstrong, Levi, Hincapie, etc - what about Chris Carmichael?

    He's made a career out of being Pharmstrong's coach and both Landis and Tyler have said that he was nothing but a glorified cheerleader who had nothing to do with LA's training.

    Where does that leave CTS? Any liability for their advertising?
    Peace is knowing someone else is suffering more than you are.

  23. #348
    Senior Member MDfive21's Avatar
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    ha, i think the webmaster has done a great job organizing and posting the information on the interweb.

  24. #349
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    That's a good question actually. Surely he knew that Lance was not following his training. He may not have known why, but his advertising was clearly false.

  25. #350
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
    In all this noise about Pharmstrong, Levi, Hincapie, etc - what about Chris Carmichael?

    He's made a career out of being Pharmstrong's coach and both Landis and Tyler have said that he was nothing but a glorified cheerleader who had nothing to do with LA's training.

    Where does that leave CTS? Any liability for their advertising?
    Maybe a class-action lawsuit on behalf of CTS' "victims". If there are enough number of people CTS have defrauded (and enough money on the table, after all LA is a shareholder in CTS), you can bet some ambitious lawyer is probably thinking class-action.
    Regards,

    Jed

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