Bike Forums

Bike Forums (http://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Professional Cycling For the Fans (http://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/)
-   -   My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news (http://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/605867-my-slightly-tearful-reaction-armstrong-news.html)

bellweatherman 01-22-10 08:21 AM

I don't take what Armstrong did for granted. However, Lemond was a much more complete cyclist. Lemond, at his absolute peak, is unrivaled. There is no doubt in my mind he would've won more Tours if not for bad luck (getting shot by brother-in-law) and having to ride for Hinault.

SneakyKing 01-24-10 07:02 PM

Lemond is supposably going to be speaking at my school this spring....wish it was Armstrong instead

MUZE 01-24-10 08:44 PM

It's kind of like asking " who was a better driver, Fangio or Schumacher?" Each competed on different eras of their sport. One also raced sport cars and one specialized. Both were great, as with Lemond and Armstrong.

baj32161 01-31-10 04:16 PM

I grew up watching Merckx, although I was not a real fan back then. It was Greg LeMond who stoked the fires for me and got me hooked, although I was never a serious rider. I rode then, and still ride for recreation and exercise. Both of these men are wonderful riders and I do not believe that you can fairly compare eras in any sport. Having said that, I give my nod to LeMond but I have enormous respect for both. Speculation aside, I believe GL would have won at l;east 2 more TdFs.

Cheers,

Brian J.

Cat4Lifer 01-31-10 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baj32161 (Post 10343713)
I believe GL would have won at l;east 2 more TdFs.

Agreed.
1987 & 1988

Cateye 02-01-10 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe (Post 10087565)
I vote Lemond.


Greg you're still trolling BF?

Eclectus 02-15-10 03:57 PM

Do you really care? LeMond paved the way for Americans, like Lance, to ride in Europe. But, a bigger question is, why doesn't America, with all our wealth, take over professional races. We have the Sierras, Rockies, Cascades. World-class terrain. The highest town in Europe, Davos, is 5000 feet. The highest town in America, Leadville, is 12,000 feet. Our highest-altitude passes beat Europe's highest-altitude passes. Our hardest climbs beat Europe's hardest climbs.

If you love Lance, tell him to put a couple million down (with contribution from Greg), to create the TdWorld championship. Here. In America.

$ick3nin.vend3t 02-16-10 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclectus (Post 10407052)
But, a bigger question is, why doesn't America, with all our wealth, take over professional races. Here. In America.

Because the sport is bigger in Europe & nothing America has to offer will ever be as big as the Tour De France, France being the most popular tourist destination in the world.

RMWrides 02-19-10 02:02 PM

Lance.

Cateye 02-27-10 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camilo (Post 10284014)
Lemond - because Armstrong rode (rides) a Trek.

I thought Lemond's were made by Trek.

ajwray 02-27-10 07:07 PM

I was watching Cash Cab the other day and the question was which TDF winner was shot while hunting and then made a comeback. The couple answered Lance, the host said Lemond, they looked perplexed.

Lance.

ultraman6970 02-28-10 05:20 PM

Two different eras, u can't compare them. Merckx was great but it is true too that Merckx ran the whole season back to back even small races, Armstrong runs only a few times per year and that's it, always focusing in the TDF.

Lemond? was great that nobody can deny that but u can;t compare him with Armstrong because are two different eras of cycling. Sadly i believe it was true that we was forced to pull back due to politics. In profesional cycling back in the day u had a star and everybody was running for him no matter how many chances to win u had. I know that because of my personal experience in europe for 1 season. And it sucks. I still remember the last world cup Hinault ran just before his retirement, a couple of guys of the french team basically towed him because he was not even to keep up with the group. Thats was the mentality back in the day and i dont know how the situation have changed, Lemnond got the bad luck to get into the middle of french team arss politics in my opinion.

Armstrong got the luck of running all the time with non french teams and that makes some differences, the other situation is that Armstrong is famous for having an attitude for saying the least. And that could have helped him a lot during all this years...

As i said before u cant compare them, both are darn good... Oh just in case greg was junior road world champion if im not mistaken he got the adult wc also. But who was better who knows... they never ran together in a hand by hand.

spoke50 03-04-10 07:39 AM

Lemond!

cyclezealot 03-04-10 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAZorro (Post 10091163)
Why not. I may as well cast the inevitable "Merckx" vote. :p

Time and space have a huge affect on who gets to be top dog... ?.. Had not years gotten in the way, how would a competition between Merckx and Armstrong panned out.. Does it really matter. ?. It's only a matter of shaving seconds off of their many races.

Prairie Native 03-16-10 09:58 PM

Quote:

The highest town in America, Leadville, is 12,000 feet.
Hardly. Leadville is 10,500. But I agree with the terrain thing. We have climbs in the sierra's that match, rival, and stomp most if not all the Alp's climbs. Onion Valley Road (imagine a giant crowd with a peloton knifing through on those switchbacks!), Mt Evans in Colorado would be a neat stage finish. And what is considered the hardest road climb maybe on earth is in New Hampshire on Mt.Washington. Start the event in California with a prologue and a few stages, hit the Sierras and creep east through the rockies and plains. do a penultimate stage on mt washington or brasstown bald and end with laps around Washington D.C. (just daydreaming i know.)

Keith99 03-17-10 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellweatherman (Post 10303429)
I don't take what Armstrong did for granted. However, Lemond was a much more complete cyclist. Lemond, at his absolute peak, is unrivaled. There is no doubt in my mind he would've won more Tours if not for bad luck (getting shot by brother-in-law) and having to ride for Hinault.

Just when was his absolute peak? It can't be when Hinault was still riding, and winning the closest TDF ever hardly seems unrivaled either. So is it his very last TDF win year?

USAZorro 03-17-10 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t (Post 10411945)
Because the sport is bigger in Europe

^^^ True

Quote:

Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t (Post 10411945)
& nothing America has to offer will ever be as big as the Tour De France,

^^^Opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t (Post 10411945)
France being the most popular tourist destination in the world.

^^^ not true

thomas p 03-22-10 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer (Post 10344211)
Agreed.
1987 & 1988

I am not so sure he would have beaten Stephen Roche in 87.Lemond was very lucky to win in 89 as well.Lemond might have had more natural talent but having a higher vo2 max does not make him a better cyclist.

merlinextraligh 03-23-10 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t (Post 10087686)
Armstrong all the way. Not just the greatest US cyclist, but the greatest cyclist of all time IMO.

And that opinion destroys any credibility you could hope to have. It's simply impossible to make any case that Armstrong even approaches Merckx.

Not only are Merckx's palmares an order of magnitude above Armstrong. The manner in which he dominated races is unmatched.

Eddy Merckx
(Other significant victories: World Amateur Road Race Champion, 1964; winner of 17 Six-day races)
1966 Milan - San Remo
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke
1967 World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
Critérium des As
1968 Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Tour of Catalonia
Tour of Romandy
Paris - Roubaix
Tre Valli Varesine
1969 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Paris - Luxembourg
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Paris - Nice
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1970 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Paris - Nice
Tour of Belgium
Paris - Roubaix
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1971 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
4 stages, Tour de France
World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Frankfurt Grand Prix
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Nice
Dauphiné - Libéré
GP du Midi Libre
Tour of Belgium
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1972 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
6 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Flèche Wallone
Giro dell'Emilia
Giro del Piemonte
GP de l'Escaut
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Roger Swerts
Hour Record - 49.431km
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1973 Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
6 stages, Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Points Competition, Vuelta a España
6 stages, Vuelta a España
Paris - Roubaix
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Grand Prix des Nations
Amstel Gold Race
Ghent - Wevelgem
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Brussels
GP Fourmies
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1974 Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
World Pro Road Race
Tour of Switzerland
Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
KoM, Tour of Switzerland
3 stages, Tour of Switzerland
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1975 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Amstel Gold Race
Catalan Week
2 stages, Tour de France
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1976 Milan - San Remo
Catalan Week
1977 1 stage, Tour of Switzerland



Only thing Armstrong has on Merckx is 7 TDF's to Merckx's 5. However, if the record had been 7 TDF's and Merckx wanted to win 7, he likely could have. In Merckx's era, the TDF was not the be all, end all, that many riders treat it as today. In 1973, Merckx elected not to ride the TDF in favor of doing a Giro/ Vuelta double. Being punched by a spoectator may have cost hima another TDF. And Merckx has 11 Grand Tour victories to Armstrong's 7.

When Armstrong wins the Green, Yellow, and Polka dot Jerseys in the same TDF, wins all 3 major tours, wins 5 Milan San Remos, wins more classics than you can shake a stick at, sets an Hour Record, and actually even enters Paris Roubaix, then you might be able to start discussing him alongside Merckx.

woodenidol 03-23-10 03:19 PM

Lemond. Won my heart and started me riding. I taped over my wedding tape with TDF coverage of Lemond. Never regretted it, my wife on the other hand, holds a very different opinion!!!

$ick3nin.vend3t 03-23-10 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 10566770)
And that opinion destroys any credibility you could hope to have. It's simply impossible to make any case that Armstrong even approaches Merckx.

Not only are Merckx's palmares an order of magnitude above Armstrong. The manner in which he dominated races is unmatched.

Only thing Armstrong has on Merckx is 7 TDF's to Merckx's 5. However, if the record had been 7 TDF's and Merckx wanted to win 7, he likely could have. In Merckx's era, the TDF was not the be all, end all, that many riders treat it as today. In 1973, Merckx elected not to ride the TDF in favor of doing a Giro/ Vuelta double. Being punched by a spoectator may have cost hima another TDF. And Merckx has 11 Grand Tour victories to Armstrong's 7.

When Armstrong wins the Green, Yellow, and Polka dot Jerseys in the same TDF, wins all 3 major tours, wins 5 Milan San Remos, wins more classics than you can shake a stick at, sets an Hour Record, and actually even enters Paris Roubaix, then you might be able to start discussing him alongside Merckx.

Different era's. Apples & Oranges.

Personally, I don't think Merckx would have contested in any of Armstrong's 7 wins & if I was a hater, we could mention the extent of Merckx's doping affairs (which possibly could have been career long).

merlinextraligh 03-23-10 06:05 PM

Even Armstrong will tell you that Merckx was the greatest ever.

As for different eras, all you can do is compare them to their peers. Merckx won virtually everything he entered and totally sominated his peers. Armstrong not so much.

As for doping, both Armstrong and Merckx played on a level playing field with their peers. Perhaps not on the level that some would like to believe. Might watch out for those glass walls.

Keith99 03-24-10 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 10567869)
Even Armstrong will tell you that Merckx was the greatest ever.

As for different eras, all you can do is compare them to their peers. Merckx won virtually everything he entered and totally sominated his peers. Armstrong not so much.

As for doping, both Armstrong and Merckx played on a level playing field with their peers. Perhaps not on the level that some would like to believe. Might watch out for those glass walls.

Years ago I tabulated wins in hte biggest 9 races in cycling (ones with history that have stayed big, thus allowing some kind of comparison between eras). Those are the 3 grand tours, the 5 monuments and the Worlds. 9 events. It is rather startling. More often than not some rider will win 2, one year 3 different riders won 2 of the 9. But winning 3 out of 9 is rare, it has only been done 15 or 16 times. Before Merckx only Fausto Coppi had ever won 4 in the same year. No rider had ever won 3 or more a second time. Merckx won 3 or more 7 years in a row, winning 4 twice and 5 twice.

I looked for other similar feats, several riders had one, few 2. Roche of course deserves mention, he was in fact a lot of why I started. But 2 other riders came up a few times. Fausto Coppi and Bernard Hinault. Coppi is the only rider who ever has (and who ever will) win all major jerseys in any 2 of the grand tours (TDF and Giro). It is harder now as there are 3 instead of 2, but then it was easier before Coppi as in the early years there was only one jersey in each tour. Hinault is the only rider ever to win each of the Grand tours in his first entry. I do not expect to see that matched either. (Hinault is also the only rider to win either the Worlds or Paris Roubaix and a Grand Tour in the same year more than once except for Merckx. Hinault did it twice, Merckx 5 times).

I don't see any serious way to consider anyone else close to these 3 and unless one overvalues Coppi's lost years Merckx is clearly the top of the 3.

$ick3nin.vend3t 03-24-10 04:58 PM

A honking Merckx doing everything under the sun is certainly going to be superior, to a majority clean peleton.

Comparable to a boxer putting steel plates in his gloves.

Its great people put him on a pedestal, but some of his greatness dies with a lot of people due to doping.

Cat4Lifer 03-27-10 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas p (Post 10561716)
I am not so sure he would have beaten Stephen Roche in 87.Lemond was very lucky to win in 89 as well.Lemond might have had more natural talent but having a higher vo2 max does not make him a better cyclist.

Yeah, it's all just speculation, but I do think Lemond would have beaten Roche. As far as luck playing a part of Lemond's '89 victory: Lemond made his luck.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:07 AM.