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  1. #26
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    I don't take what Armstrong did for granted. However, Lemond was a much more complete cyclist. Lemond, at his absolute peak, is unrivaled. There is no doubt in my mind he would've won more Tours if not for bad luck (getting shot by brother-in-law) and having to ride for Hinault.
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  2. #27
    Senior Member SneakyKing's Avatar
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    Lemond is supposably going to be speaking at my school this spring....wish it was Armstrong instead
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  3. #28
    Senior Member MUZE's Avatar
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    It's kind of like asking " who was a better driver, Fangio or Schumacher?" Each competed on different eras of their sport. One also raced sport cars and one specialized. Both were great, as with Lemond and Armstrong.

  4. #29
    Behind EVERYone!!! baj32161's Avatar
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    I grew up watching Merckx, although I was not a real fan back then. It was Greg LeMond who stoked the fires for me and got me hooked, although I was never a serious rider. I rode then, and still ride for recreation and exercise. Both of these men are wonderful riders and I do not believe that you can fairly compare eras in any sport. Having said that, I give my nod to LeMond but I have enormous respect for both. Speculation aside, I believe GL would have won at l;east 2 more TdFs.

    Cheers,

    Brian J.
    Last edited by baj32161; 01-31-10 at 03:36 PM.
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  5. #30
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baj32161 View Post
    I believe GL would have won at l;east 2 more TdFs.
    Agreed.
    1987 & 1988

  6. #31
    Senior Member Cateye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    I vote Lemond.

    Greg you're still trolling BF?

  7. #32
    Senior Member Eclectus's Avatar
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    Do you really care? LeMond paved the way for Americans, like Lance, to ride in Europe. But, a bigger question is, why doesn't America, with all our wealth, take over professional races. We have the Sierras, Rockies, Cascades. World-class terrain. The highest town in Europe, Davos, is 5000 feet. The highest town in America, Leadville, is 12,000 feet. Our highest-altitude passes beat Europe's highest-altitude passes. Our hardest climbs beat Europe's hardest climbs.

    If you love Lance, tell him to put a couple million down (with contribution from Greg), to create the TdWorld championship. Here. In America.

  8. #33
    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectus View Post
    But, a bigger question is, why doesn't America, with all our wealth, take over professional races. Here. In America.
    Because the sport is bigger in Europe & nothing America has to offer will ever be as big as the Tour De France, France being the most popular tourist destination in the world.

  9. #34
    ::: RMWrides's Avatar
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    Lance.
    "We're so concerned with failure and success—like these two things are all that's going to sum you up at the end"

  10. #35
    Senior Member Cateye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
    Lemond - because Armstrong rode (rides) a Trek.
    I thought Lemond's were made by Trek.

  11. #36
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    I was watching Cash Cab the other day and the question was which TDF winner was shot while hunting and then made a comeback. The couple answered Lance, the host said Lemond, they looked perplexed.

    Lance.

  12. #37
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    Two different eras, u can't compare them. Merckx was great but it is true too that Merckx ran the whole season back to back even small races, Armstrong runs only a few times per year and that's it, always focusing in the TDF.

    Lemond? was great that nobody can deny that but u can;t compare him with Armstrong because are two different eras of cycling. Sadly i believe it was true that we was forced to pull back due to politics. In profesional cycling back in the day u had a star and everybody was running for him no matter how many chances to win u had. I know that because of my personal experience in europe for 1 season. And it sucks. I still remember the last world cup Hinault ran just before his retirement, a couple of guys of the french team basically towed him because he was not even to keep up with the group. Thats was the mentality back in the day and i dont know how the situation have changed, Lemnond got the bad luck to get into the middle of french team arss politics in my opinion.

    Armstrong got the luck of running all the time with non french teams and that makes some differences, the other situation is that Armstrong is famous for having an attitude for saying the least. And that could have helped him a lot during all this years...

    As i said before u cant compare them, both are darn good... Oh just in case greg was junior road world champion if im not mistaken he got the adult wc also. But who was better who knows... they never ran together in a hand by hand.

  13. #38
    Miles over Matter spoke50's Avatar
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    Lemond!
    [SIGPIC]http://www.bikeforums.net/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=115093&dateline=1207511414[/SIGPIC]

  14. #39
    Senior Member cyclezealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    Why not. I may as well cast the inevitable "Merckx" vote.
    Time and space have a huge affect on who gets to be top dog... ?.. Had not years gotten in the way, how would a competition between Merckx and Armstrong panned out.. Does it really matter. ?. It's only a matter of shaving seconds off of their many races.
    Pray for the Dead and Fight like Hell for the Living









    ^ Since June 16, 2011

  15. #40
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    The highest town in America, Leadville, is 12,000 feet.
    Hardly. Leadville is 10,500. But I agree with the terrain thing. We have climbs in the sierra's that match, rival, and stomp most if not all the Alp's climbs. Onion Valley Road (imagine a giant crowd with a peloton knifing through on those switchbacks!), Mt Evans in Colorado would be a neat stage finish. And what is considered the hardest road climb maybe on earth is in New Hampshire on Mt.Washington. Start the event in California with a prologue and a few stages, hit the Sierras and creep east through the rockies and plains. do a penultimate stage on mt washington or brasstown bald and end with laps around Washington D.C. (just daydreaming i know.)

  16. #41
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    I don't take what Armstrong did for granted. However, Lemond was a much more complete cyclist. Lemond, at his absolute peak, is unrivaled. There is no doubt in my mind he would've won more Tours if not for bad luck (getting shot by brother-in-law) and having to ride for Hinault.
    Just when was his absolute peak? It can't be when Hinault was still riding, and winning the closest TDF ever hardly seems unrivaled either. So is it his very last TDF win year?

  17. #42
    Señor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    Because the sport is bigger in Europe
    ^^^ True

    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    & nothing America has to offer will ever be as big as the Tour De France,
    ^^^Opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    France being the most popular tourist destination in the world.
    ^^^ not true
    The search for inner peace continues...

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Agreed.
    1987 & 1988
    I am not so sure he would have beaten Stephen Roche in 87.Lemond was very lucky to win in 89 as well.Lemond might have had more natural talent but having a higher vo2 max does not make him a better cyclist.

  19. #44
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    Armstrong all the way. Not just the greatest US cyclist, but the greatest cyclist of all time IMO.
    And that opinion destroys any credibility you could hope to have. It's simply impossible to make any case that Armstrong even approaches Merckx.

    Not only are Merckx's palmares an order of magnitude above Armstrong. The manner in which he dominated races is unmatched.

    Eddy Merckx
    (Other significant victories: World Amateur Road Race Champion, 1964; winner of 17 Six-day races)
    1966 Milan - San Remo
    Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke
    1967 World Pro Road Race
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    4 stages, Giro d'Italia
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    Tour of Flanders
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    Hour Record - 49.431km
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    Catalan Week
    2 stages, Tour de France
    1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
    Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
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    Only thing Armstrong has on Merckx is 7 TDF's to Merckx's 5. However, if the record had been 7 TDF's and Merckx wanted to win 7, he likely could have. In Merckx's era, the TDF was not the be all, end all, that many riders treat it as today. In 1973, Merckx elected not to ride the TDF in favor of doing a Giro/ Vuelta double. Being punched by a spoectator may have cost hima another TDF. And Merckx has 11 Grand Tour victories to Armstrong's 7.

    When Armstrong wins the Green, Yellow, and Polka dot Jerseys in the same TDF, wins all 3 major tours, wins 5 Milan San Remos, wins more classics than you can shake a stick at, sets an Hour Record, and actually even enters Paris Roubaix, then you might be able to start discussing him alongside Merckx.
    Last edited by merlinextraligh; 03-23-10 at 02:16 PM.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  20. #45
    Senior Member woodenidol's Avatar
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    Lemond. Won my heart and started me riding. I taped over my wedding tape with TDF coverage of Lemond. Never regretted it, my wife on the other hand, holds a very different opinion!!!

  21. #46
    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    And that opinion destroys any credibility you could hope to have. It's simply impossible to make any case that Armstrong even approaches Merckx.

    Not only are Merckx's palmares an order of magnitude above Armstrong. The manner in which he dominated races is unmatched.

    Only thing Armstrong has on Merckx is 7 TDF's to Merckx's 5. However, if the record had been 7 TDF's and Merckx wanted to win 7, he likely could have. In Merckx's era, the TDF was not the be all, end all, that many riders treat it as today. In 1973, Merckx elected not to ride the TDF in favor of doing a Giro/ Vuelta double. Being punched by a spoectator may have cost hima another TDF. And Merckx has 11 Grand Tour victories to Armstrong's 7.

    When Armstrong wins the Green, Yellow, and Polka dot Jerseys in the same TDF, wins all 3 major tours, wins 5 Milan San Remos, wins more classics than you can shake a stick at, sets an Hour Record, and actually even enters Paris Roubaix, then you might be able to start discussing him alongside Merckx.
    Different era's. Apples & Oranges.

    Personally, I don't think Merckx would have contested in any of Armstrong's 7 wins & if I was a hater, we could mention the extent of Merckx's doping affairs (which possibly could have been career long).

  22. #47
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Even Armstrong will tell you that Merckx was the greatest ever.

    As for different eras, all you can do is compare them to their peers. Merckx won virtually everything he entered and totally sominated his peers. Armstrong not so much.

    As for doping, both Armstrong and Merckx played on a level playing field with their peers. Perhaps not on the level that some would like to believe. Might watch out for those glass walls.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Even Armstrong will tell you that Merckx was the greatest ever.

    As for different eras, all you can do is compare them to their peers. Merckx won virtually everything he entered and totally sominated his peers. Armstrong not so much.

    As for doping, both Armstrong and Merckx played on a level playing field with their peers. Perhaps not on the level that some would like to believe. Might watch out for those glass walls.
    Years ago I tabulated wins in hte biggest 9 races in cycling (ones with history that have stayed big, thus allowing some kind of comparison between eras). Those are the 3 grand tours, the 5 monuments and the Worlds. 9 events. It is rather startling. More often than not some rider will win 2, one year 3 different riders won 2 of the 9. But winning 3 out of 9 is rare, it has only been done 15 or 16 times. Before Merckx only Fausto Coppi had ever won 4 in the same year. No rider had ever won 3 or more a second time. Merckx won 3 or more 7 years in a row, winning 4 twice and 5 twice.

    I looked for other similar feats, several riders had one, few 2. Roche of course deserves mention, he was in fact a lot of why I started. But 2 other riders came up a few times. Fausto Coppi and Bernard Hinault. Coppi is the only rider who ever has (and who ever will) win all major jerseys in any 2 of the grand tours (TDF and Giro). It is harder now as there are 3 instead of 2, but then it was easier before Coppi as in the early years there was only one jersey in each tour. Hinault is the only rider ever to win each of the Grand tours in his first entry. I do not expect to see that matched either. (Hinault is also the only rider to win either the Worlds or Paris Roubaix and a Grand Tour in the same year more than once except for Merckx. Hinault did it twice, Merckx 5 times).

    I don't see any serious way to consider anyone else close to these 3 and unless one overvalues Coppi's lost years Merckx is clearly the top of the 3.

  24. #49
    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    A honking Merckx doing everything under the sun is certainly going to be superior, to a majority clean peleton.

    Comparable to a boxer putting steel plates in his gloves.

    Its great people put him on a pedestal, but some of his greatness dies with a lot of people due to doping.
    Last edited by $ick3nin.vend3t; 03-27-10 at 11:24 AM.

  25. #50
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas p View Post
    I am not so sure he would have beaten Stephen Roche in 87.Lemond was very lucky to win in 89 as well.Lemond might have had more natural talent but having a higher vo2 max does not make him a better cyclist.
    Yeah, it's all just speculation, but I do think Lemond would have beaten Roche. As far as luck playing a part of Lemond's '89 victory: Lemond made his luck.

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