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Old 01-18-13, 11:16 AM   #1351
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That will never completely stop. Even if it was reduced to 1% of the public (and it won't) that's still a crap load of people.
You'll never go broke catering to the Lowest Common Denominator in America. (eja cough cough).
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Old 01-18-13, 11:18 AM   #1352
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All the people that you listed above are still alive, none of them are pushing daisies.

They all had a chance to fight LA in court, yet they chose not to.

Whether he bribed the UCI is just that, speculation.

Do any of the holier-than-thou posters here have a perfect record?

Posters here remind me of a bunch of vultures feasting on the corpse of the man who, for millions of riders and cancer victims, was the inspiration to get off the couch and start doing something positive.
He sued Emma for $500,000 that is not a very nice thing to do to your massuese. He lied to everyone and does not seem to be remorseful about it. He does not deserve any respect from anyone for any of his accoplishments, there are ALL based on lies.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:21 AM   #1353
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I understand it but you're leaving out a critical point. Yes oj had a good life. Because he kept done money. Lance will as well. He's worth like a 150 million. But neither of them will be liked. Trusted. Armstrong will end up a meme. Forever associated with doping and cheating. He will not command respect or attention in the manner he did. He will not command the attention if presidents. Guys like that aren't about the good life meaning having enough cash to do what they want they crave power.


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Maybe you really didn't understand my OJ comparison. What I'm saying is that after being branded a murderer and having a multi-million dollar civil judgement against him he was still living well. He threw that away by making more mistakes, but Armstrong won't be that foolish.

Lance is arrogant and less than truthful. And yet even on this forums there are people defending him. "Level playing field", "Cycling has a history of doping", "Look at all the people he helped" and all that. That will never completely stop. Even if it was reduced to 1% of the public (and it won't) that's still a crap load of people.

He isn't naming names right now because his current goal is to have his ban reduced and offending those in power won't help there. He'll save that for later. And when he does decide it's time, people will get in line to hear from him again.

I'm sure Lances bar is set higher than having sex with groupies, too. But those things are still there for him. Maybe it will never get as high, but his ball is still bouncing.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:23 AM   #1354
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...Check out his comments on the Lance/Oprah thread. He's like one of those old Japanese soldiers stuck on an island who still thought WWII was going on.
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That is why I wrote: Greg will serve his cause better if he remains the elder, and circumspect, bike statesman rather than just a guy who can't keep his mouth shut
not cruel enough to call him a tool, but also not completely believing that he was always 'clean'.
Note: Merckx keeps very quiet about the whole period after his time... best approach.

not sure why Lemond needs to be charging everyhting like Don Quixote... some people are just like that...
its not serving him well.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:26 AM   #1355
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Old 01-18-13, 11:27 AM   #1356
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Sure he will. You're underestimating his desire to bounce back from this, and - barring a few exceptions - the ultimately forgiving nature of our society when it comes to celebrities. You'll see.
Yep. And I'll add to that, the public is stupid, star-struck, and more enamored with spectacle than integrity.

LA didn't do this interview to come clean or set the record straight. He did the interview only in his self interest.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:29 AM   #1357
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not cruel enough to call him a tool, but also not completely believing that he was always 'clean'.
Note: Merckx keeps very quiet about the whole period after his time... best approach.
Except that Lemond was one of the few Tour Champions who advocated increasing doping controls while he was competing and winning. If anything, Lemond's inelegant elocution is just more proof that he could not have pulled off the lie as well as Armstrong, (or Merckx for that matter.) If Lemond had only kept his mouth shut, perhaps none of the others would have been inspired to speak out, so of course the Yellow Bracelet Brigade still hate his guts.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:32 AM   #1358
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I understand it but you're leaving out a critical point. Yes oj had a good life. Because he kept done money. Lance will as well. He's worth like a 150 million. But neither of them will be liked. Trusted. Armstrong will end up a meme. Forever associated with doping and cheating. He will not command respect or attention in the manner he did. He will not command the attention if presidents. Guys like that aren't about the good life meaning having enough cash to do what they want they crave power.
Right. But Lance's life is far from over. He's only 41. My whole point is that he isn't going to sit on his ass. He hasn't lost it all, and he won't. He will use everything he has left to keep climbing higher wherever he can and he will be just at ruthless as ever. And at the very end he will still feel justified and that he's a winner.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:36 AM   #1359
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It is my fervent hope that Trek or some other company starts manufacturing Steel Lemond bikes again. Those Trek cornflake bikes that Thugstrong rode eat monkey pooh.
Lance doping proves steel is better than carbon. That makes sense.
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Old 01-18-13, 11:42 AM   #1360
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...
Greg should do everyone a favor and just shut his mouth. As the ancient Chinese proverb says, "It is better to have everyone think that you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
...
LOL!

You may want to take your own advice, considering Greg's track record with the truth so far.

Also, I always find it so odd when folks criticise him for being a 'has been'. Is that better or worse than your record of 'never was'?

Your post is a litany of your own ignorance. Why not ask, instead of of proving yourself a fool?
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Old 01-18-13, 11:48 AM   #1361
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Lemond isn't the tool here.


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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
Really Greg? No TdF winner ever used drugs?
You're taking Lemond's quote out of context.

Lance said "no one can win the Tour without doping." This basically accuses every successful pro cyclist of juicing.


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Originally Posted by eja
LeMond believes that Armstrong’s natural talent was ‘average’ and that he couldn’t have won the Tour De France clean because he wasn’t the super-talented athlete he made himself out to be.
Yeah, I'd agree that isn't a correct assessment. Armstrong didn't have privileged access to any drugs. Still, he's right that Armstrong was nowhere near as exceptional as he proclaimed, with all that "zomg superior VO2Max" BS.


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Originally Posted by eja
was the aero bar that Greg used to beat Fignon legal?
Yes. It was approved by the UCI before the race.

By the way, Lemond and Fignon were never more than 1 minute apart during the entire race. Lemond took a risk to use aero bars, and it worked out.


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Originally Posted by eja
Greg will serve his cause better if he remains the elder, and circumspect, bike statesman rather than just a guy who can't keep his mouth shut.
Yeah, that's actually what he did for many years:

"I couldn’t go near the Tour de France for fear I would be asked about Armstrong and doping. What could I say – ‘no comment’? I couldn’t sell my soul and switch topics to talk about my 1986 Tour."

Lemond may be wrong on a few of the finer points, but at the core he's right. Armstrong was a doper, a bully, and a litigious bastard who had no qualms about ruining the lives of anyone who dared to tell the truth -- and has yet to express any remorse for his actions.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:13 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
Remind me again... Did LA launch a war on false pretenses?
He repeatedly wrecked careers and sued people in order to cover up his lies.


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Originally Posted by eja
Did LA steal money from orphans, widows and retired people?
He built a cancer charity which, while fairly well run: Funds almost no cancer research, doesn't provide a lot of services, and mostly exists to burnish Armstrong's ego.


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Originally Posted by eja
Did LA take money from your pocket?
He used sponsorship money from the USPS to pay for his team's doping regime. Pretty close.


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Originally Posted by eja
Did LA motivate people to get off their fat asses and get on a bike to ride
Not me. And not the people who are riding more and more over the past few years. And almost all of the people who were motivated by Armstrong believed a well-orchestrated lie.


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Originally Posted by eja
Did LA make an average bike company fabulously rich?
Average or mediocre?

And no, I don't care how much he boosted Trek's sales.


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Originally Posted by eja
Did LA give hope and inspiration to million of cancer victims, cancer survivors and their families?
How much of his motivation to start his charity was to pad his image, which in turn lined his pocketbook?

Has he resigned the board of Livestrong yet?

Did he decide that livestrong.org would be for the non-profit, and livestrong.com would be a commercial entity that was allowed to use the Livestrong brand identity?

We're not all consequentialists, by the way. Motives count when passing judgment.


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Originally Posted by eja
Why the public opprobrium?
Because he's a lying, manipulative, vindictive, cruel, selfish man who ruined at least a dozen careers to protect his lies, received enormous material rewards explicitly because of his unethical behavior, and tarnished the sport of cycling for years to come.

Oh yeah, he's also perjured himself on multiple occasions.

And he was about as remorseful as a leech in the Big Interview.


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Originally Posted by eja
Why do you see the speck in your brother'seyebut fail to notice the beam that is in your own eye?
For starters, I'm not a lying manipulative vindictive cruel selfish bastard who got rich off of a pack of lies.


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Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:35 PM   #1363
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The thing that struck me about the Oprah/Armstrong interview was how "brutish" Lance was with some of his words. I always thought of him as a kind of sophisticated guy, and to think with the money/resources he has, he could not find really great PR people to prepare him for that crucial interview.

The picture painted was that of a very narcissistic guy, who is almost a borderline sociopath. Kinda sad, in that the doping could probably be forgiven, but where he really crossed the line was with the viciousness/meaness he went after opponents, whom he knew were being truthful.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:37 PM   #1364
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It's a joke. Internet banter. A stock bulletin board line. 'Calm down.' I've posted that perhaps several hundred times here. It's actually a carry over from another board I was on.

So no, there is no tactic. I meant it the way I said I meant it. And others got that as well. That you want to make debating the nuance of my post a hobby is your issue. I don't care. I watched Lance come up as a junior, and know what I and others thought of his abilities.
So many keystrokes for someone with no time.
Hey, but if you want to go on saying that Lance winning atop mountain stages in the "low" mountains of two week races is comparable Cavendish making the time-cuts in "high" mountains of the TDF, so be it.

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Old 01-18-13, 12:40 PM   #1365
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The specific premise in the OP's post that I was responding to is that Armstrong still would have won without using PED's because he was so much faster. And that's likely not true. Take away the PED's and he's going to lose more than 7 minutes over the other top contenders, who presumably were using EPO.

The OP's question wasn't who wins in a clean field, or whether Armstrong had an unfair advantage. The question was whether PED's can make that much time difference.
Ah, ok then.
Yeah, if he raced without PEDs I wouldn't be surprised if he lost 10+ minutes.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:42 PM   #1366
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You can have that be the all important last word.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:46 PM   #1367
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Remind me again...

Did LA launch a war on false pretenses?

Did LA lie about having sex with "that" woman

Did LA hoodwink an entire nation into voting for him for higher office

Did LA send people of the "wrong" race or religion to their deaths?

Did LA steal money from orphans, widows and retired people?

Did LA slash his wife's throat?

Did LA sexually molest children?

Did LA take money from your pocket?

Did LA motivate people to get off their fat asses and get on a bike to ride

Did LA make an average bike company fabulously rich?

Did LA give hope and inspiration to million of cancer victims, cancer survivors and their families?

Why the public opprobrium?

Why do you see the speck in your brother'seyebut fail to notice the beam that is in your own eye?

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

lol
I just watched a clip of Besty A's interview with Cooper...man she's a nut
Lance is one dumb ass to trust her with anything damaging.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:47 PM   #1368
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Since they have been cracking down on drug use the finishing times of the Tour and other events have been slower overall... Lance may have been one of the most gifted riders of all time and also had a really good pharmaceutical team.
The real tragedy of the EPO era is that we'll never know what could have been. Jonathan Vaughters has pointed out that it is crap to say that EPO use leveled the playing field. He gave the example of George Hincapie, who naturally had some biological/physiological advantage, in that his hematocrit level was much higher than normal (probably due to his ancestors coming from the mountains of Colombia), but that natural advantage was neutralised by the EPO doping of his rivals. So George, who could have probably dominated his rivals in the pro peloton (at least in the mountains and time trials), just ended up being a super-domestic.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:52 PM   #1369
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Lance said "no one can win the Tour without doping." This basically accuses every successful pro cyclist of juicing.
I remember him saying in his [Lance's generation] that he wouldn't have won without the use PEDs.
Lemond is a tool; it was pretty clear that Lance was saying what David Walsh has said: doping was "pervasive" in pro-cycling during the 90s.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:53 PM   #1370
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I just watched a clip of Besty A's interview with Cooper...man she's a nut
Lance is one dumb ass to trust her with anything damaging.
1) "She's a nut" in part because Lance wrecked her husband's career, and repeatedly insulted her in public, and he STILL couldn't admit that she was telling the truth.

All he could do is smirk and say "I never called you fat." Even Oprah didn't buy that one.


2) He didn't "trust her" with anything. She was in the room when Armstrong told one of his doctors that he had done a whole bunch of PED's.

She actually did what you're supposed to do -- namely, tell the truth when asked about it in a court of law.
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Old 01-18-13, 12:57 PM   #1371
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^And the Andreus sat on that story until subpoenaed by a court of law.
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Old 01-18-13, 01:19 PM   #1372
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1) "She's a nut" in part because Lance wrecked her husband's career, and repeatedly insulted her in public, and he STILL couldn't admit that she was telling the truth.
I doubt that. I think she was a nut before, after Lance did his dirt she's an angry nut.
I'm curious, what did Lance to to Frankie's career? I do remember him staying on with USPS after he retired, at least through 2001.
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All he could do is smirk and say "I never called you fat." Even Oprah didn't buy that one.
lol
Yeah, he did come of as his old self.
I doubt he's really sorry about calling her what he did.
My guess is that he felt that she was really bothered by thinking he called her fat , and thought it funny -- ironic maybe -- that she was really upset over something he hadn't said.

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2) He didn't "trust her" with anything. She was in the room when Armstrong told one of his doctors that he had done a whole bunch of PED's.
No, actually he did. She recounts that the doctors suggest that they be alone with Armstrong, when he said no, they can talk in front of them.

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She actually did what you're supposed to do -- namely, tell the truth when asked about it in a court of law.
Sure, but the reason she was called to testify is because she had opened her mouth before, but not while Frankie was making $$ on the team. She wasn't so nuts that she spoke truthfully while her hubby was getting a paycheck and some of that TDF prize $
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Old 01-18-13, 01:27 PM   #1373
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I think most people , myself included thought the guy was a schmuck on his best day. It seems to me that he did this Oprah thing purely for his own reasons. I dont know what those could be, but I highly doubt he did this for anyone's benefit except his own. All these comments relating his admission to other deeds that others have done is just silly. Its actually what I think is wrong with the world in this age, there is no honor. It is a rare thing when a person does the right thing because it is the right thing to do. I don't mean not dope in the first place or never make a mistake, but when you do, understand what societies rules and conventions are and fess up. Dont try to bend things to favor your mistake.
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Old 01-18-13, 02:06 PM   #1374
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I hope he becomes homeless living under a trussel bridge somewhere in Oregon.
Please no......Oregon's welfare system is already overloaded.

He'll do better in his home state of Texas, where he has family, friends and lots of adoring fans.
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Old 01-18-13, 02:11 PM   #1375
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All the people that you listed above are still alive, none of them are pushing daisies.

They all had a chance to fight LA in court, yet they chose not to.

Whether he bribed the UCI is just that, speculation.

Do any of the holier-than-thou posters here have a perfect record?

Posters here remind me of a bunch of vultures feasting on the corpse of the man who, for millions of riders and cancer victims, was the inspiration to get off the couch and start doing something positive.
So the standard here is don't kill anyone and you're above reproach?
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