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Old 01-28-13, 09:01 PM   #1626
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C. canam73 is not good at designing surveys.
Correct. Also acceptable would have been d)
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Old 01-28-13, 09:09 PM   #1627
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So what we've established so far is that every Tour Champion except for Lemond doped. And possibly Hinault.
I'm still waiting for some evidence on the latter (besides the bitter, butthurt Armstrong partisans shrieking "Duh! He's French therefore they didn't test him/swept it under the rug!" )

It's a willful leap of assumption and a grave injustice to claim that just because your hero was proven a fraud and eventually forced to confess to his own cheating and lying, that therefore all other competitors are cheaters & liars as well.

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Old 01-28-13, 10:11 PM   #1628
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really? how many TdF's did that guy win?
Sorry, just checkin' in after a couple of days. But it looks like the other chaps covered it for me. See below.

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He won 5. Compare that to the guy you said is the best ever - who has won zero.
Succinct and to the point.

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He won every major grand tour at least twice.

Hinault won 5 also, and other than vague rumors and the usual "everyone was doping so he must have been too" logic, nothing has ever stuck. LeMond backs him on riding clean while they were teammates on La Vie Claire. And he had no great love for the Badger after 1986.

No one really believes that Indurain won his 5 clean, on the other hand.
Yes

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Setting aside doping issues, there is no serious argument that Armstrong holds a candle to Merckx.

To address your specific question, Merckx won 5 tours. However you have to realize that the TDF while the most important race on the calender, was not the overwhelmingly dominant focus of the cycling world as it is today. Merckx could have won more TDFs had he chose to. One year, he did not even ride the TDF, choosing instead to accomplish the Giro, Vuelta double, and he might have won another TDF had he not been punched by a spectator.

Then you get to how Merckx dominated the TDF. Merckx holds the record for most days in Yellow, Most stage wins, most multiple jerseys. Armstrong is well down in all those categories. And Merckx is the only rider to ever win all the jerseys in one TDF. So looking at just the TDF, it's a draw; Armstrong with 2 more wins, Merckx with more impressive overall performances.

Then beyond the TDF, there is simply no comparison. Grand Tours go 11 to 7 for Merckx. Classics wins go 28 to 1 for Merckx. Hour record, 1-0 for Merckx. Monuments wins go 19-0 to Merckx. World Championship Road Race 3-2 Merckx. Super Prestige Pernod or UCI Pro Tour championships 7-0 Merckx. 525 Pro victories for Merckx, compared to a relative handful for Armstrong outsied the TDF.

There is simply no credible argument that Armstrong begins to comapre to Merckx, unless you take such a myopic view of Pro Cycling that nothing beyond the TDF matters.
Thanks, I would not have explained any differently.
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Old 01-29-13, 09:29 AM   #1629
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Which means, he's still the best doper there has ever been.
Well it's pretty obvious that doping in Eddy's era had minimal effect. There is no comparison with Lance's. You can say that Lance was the best doper, but in Eddy's case this is not a reasonable conclusion.

Of course everyone has heard this by now. Folks still saying it have simply chosen to believe, for whatever personal reasons.
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Old 01-29-13, 10:22 AM   #1630
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My understanding is that doping has been rampant since the very early days of the sport. Cocaine, amphetimenes, whatever else they could get their hands on. Read accounts of racing written by old timers who were involved.

While there may be little 'eveidence,' it is actually pretty safe to assume they were all doping. It seems all the testing has been very very flawed (chance of false-negative close to 100%) and all we have to go on is the word of the riders.

Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
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Old 01-29-13, 11:21 AM   #1631
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...
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
Did anyone ever question Eddy's behavior? I haven't researched it in any way, but my impression was that when doping was widespread, it was pretty well accepted as part of what you signed up for. At least, if you wanted to have any real success.
Even though Eddy was caught doping, he is still highly respected as a cyclist. Regardless of LA's character flaws (and lack of conscience), he's still one hell of cyclist. However, people seem quite ready to write him of as the guy who couldn't even balance on two wheels except that he took a "TdF Victory Pill" (coming soon to a pharmacy near you).
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Old 01-29-13, 11:24 AM   #1632
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I'm not sure where you see anyone painting his as that.

Nor is it reasonable to compare the kind of doping Merckx did with that of the modern era.
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Old 01-29-13, 11:33 AM   #1633
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my impression was that when doping was widespread
Also known as 'NOW'


I don't think there is any indication that the sport has cleaned up or will be cleaning up. The riders, the sponsors, the coaches are happy to crucify Lance for his crimes and keep on doing what they have ALWAYS done with a wink and a nod.
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Old 01-29-13, 11:33 AM   #1634
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I would be interested to read an interview in which Frankie says his 'foray into doping began in 1999...'. So far as I have ever seen, he has always (since his original admittance) been consistent regarding his doping past.
You know, I would too. Unfortunately for us, it seems Frankie is an exceptional liar and tiptoes around the truth as if he were classically trained ballet-dancer. However, we do have Frankie's and Betsy's words on the matter, and if we look at the timeline Frankie had publically outlined of his doping and look at his affidavit and use our thinking-caps, we can see that Frankie's (and possibly Betsy's) BS runs pretty deep.

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Old 01-29-13, 11:36 AM   #1635
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My understanding is that doping has been rampant since the very early days of the sport. Cocaine, amphetimenes, whatever else they could get their hands on. Read accounts of racing written by old timers who were involved.

While there may be little 'eveidence,' it is actually pretty safe to assume they were all doping. It seems all the testing has been very very flawed (chance of false-negative close to 100%) and all we have to go on is the word of the riders.

Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
Keep in mind that steroids were not at all in existence during Eddie's time. so there's no way he could have possibly used them. So as the BF experts note, doping in his era had "minimal effect," which of course is why they did it.

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Old 01-29-13, 11:37 AM   #1636
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I'm not sure where you see anyone painting his as that.

Nor is it reasonable to compare the kind of doping Merckx did with that of the modern era.
It is totally resonable - between 1890 and ~1960, they all had access to and used stimulants and any other advantage they could get their hands on. Between ~1960 and ~1990 they used stimulants and steroids. Probably blood doping. Between 1990 - today, EPO, steroids, blood doping. Simplifying the reality, I know, but to illustrate a point.
In all cases, they took substances to enhance their performance in contavention of the rules (except for the very earliest years before they thought to make rules against it). The use was widespread, and made it very difficult for someone to win unless he was also cheating.

What's different exaclty? That the drugs are more effective?
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Old 01-29-13, 11:40 AM   #1637
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I'm not sure where you see anyone painting his as that.
Just the vibe that seems to be coming through. Admittedly, I get that vibe more from non-cyclists than from this thread.

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Nor is it reasonable to compare the kind of doping Merckx did with that of the modern era.
I think the kind of doping is irrelevant. Just because it was less effective, it was still giving them an edge and it was still cheating. I'm not defending LA's doping. He cheated and deserves to be banned.
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Old 01-29-13, 11:45 AM   #1638
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Also known as 'NOW'


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I don't think there is any indication that the sport has cleaned up or will be cleaning up. The riders, the sponsors, the coaches are happy to crucify Lance for his crimes and keep on doing what they have ALWAYS done with a wink and a nod.
Seems very likely.
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Old 01-29-13, 12:17 PM   #1639
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Keep in mind that steroids were not at all in existence during Eddie's time. so there's no way he could have possibly used them. So as the BF experts note, doping in his era had "minimal effect," which of course is why they did it.
Are you joking? Eddy retired in he late 70s. Steroids had been in use by athletes for ~20 years by then. I don't know what he took or didn' take, but he certainly had access to steroids if he had wanted to take them.
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Old 01-29-13, 12:17 PM   #1640
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I just can't believe some of you are proposing that "cheating" isn't so bad if the affects of it aren't as great as later opportunities provide.

I admire Merckx. I have a frame bearing his name in the garage.

But, while potentially being the greatest cyclist of all time, he was also a doper, a cheat, and a 'boss' of the peleton, much like Lance.

This thread is starting to loose me, as I wonder when we get to start looking ahead and put Lance behind us. They've stripped the titles. He's said, "yes" to Operah. The only thing left is settling of the civil suits.
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Old 01-29-13, 12:23 PM   #1641
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You know, I would too. Unfortunately for us, it seems Frankie is an exceptional liar and tiptoes around the truth as if he were classically trained ballet-dancer. However, we do have Frankie's and Betsy's words on the matter, and if we look at the timeline Frankie had publically outlined of his doping and look at his affidavit and use our thinking-caps, we can see that Frankie's (and possibly Betsy's) BS runs pretty deep.
uh...so he never actually said what you insist he said, but because you insist he said it, he's a liar. rrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiggghhhhhttttttt.
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Old 01-29-13, 12:31 PM   #1642
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Keep in mind that steroids were not at all in existence during Eddie's time. so there's no way he could have possibly used them. So as the BF experts note, doping in his era had "minimal effect," which of course is why they did it.
Please, I am interested to see some research suggesting that the doping practices of this time were especially effective. I await your learned response.
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Old 01-29-13, 12:54 PM   #1643
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Just because guys did stuff doesn't mean it actually had a performance advantage. Cyclists used to smoke before climbs because they believed it opened up their lungs? Ever taken an upper? I have. It just made me jittery and ill. Crap, they killed Tom Simpson. One simply can't compare it to EPO simply for the fact that even if the doping methodologies had some effect they did not nullify ones ability to race clean against those riders. That changed with pervasive epo and blood manipulation.

That isn't to say that it isn't cheating or bad. Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
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Old 01-29-13, 02:07 PM   #1644
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Just because guys did stuff doesn't mean it actually had a performance advantage. Cyclists used to smoke before climbs because they believed it opened up their lungs? Ever taken an upper? I have. It just made me jittery and ill. Crap, they killed Tom Simpson. One simply can't compare it to EPO simply for the fact that even if the doping methodologies had some effect they did not nullify ones ability to race clean against those riders. That changed with pervasive epo and blood manipulation.

That isn't to say that it isn't cheating or bad. Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
Well put.
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Old 01-29-13, 02:43 PM   #1645
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...even if the doping methodologies had some effect they did not nullify ones ability to race clean against those riders.
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...Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
These are contradictory statements. Either their doping had an effect or it didn't. You can't have it both ways. Clean riders could either hang with them or they couldn't. Again, you can't have it both ways.
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Old 01-29-13, 02:49 PM   #1646
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Those statements aren't even remotely contradictory. In fact they're comparing two different eras.

For example: Even if you could prove that taking uppers had some effect on race performance, their use did not preclude clean riders from winning. The same can not be said of EPO and modern blood manipulation techniques. Their ability to increase watts/kg made it so that clean riders simply couldn't be competitive.

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Old 01-29-13, 02:50 PM   #1647
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I didn't realize the second statement was aimed at a different era.
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Old 01-29-13, 03:06 PM   #1648
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Those statements aren't even remotely contradictory. In fact they're comparing two different eras.

For example: Even if you could prove that taking uppers had some effect on race performance, their use did not preclude clean riders from winning. The same can not be said of EPO and modern blood manipulation techniques. Their ability to increase watts/kg made it so that clean riders simply couldn't not be competitive.
Since my Wayback machine is broken, I cannot return to 1967 and test all the riders. We do know that there was a fair percentage of the riders doping, and that some riders who have confessed to or been caught dping were dominant (for one - the most dominant rider in professional road racing ever - Eddy). So what evidence do you have that the drugs were not effective, or that those who were pure of heart and of blood could win?

Have you ever tried to circumnavigate France on a bicycle in 3 weeks without drugs? I assure you it would not be easy.

I think it is time we all look at professional cycling (all disciplines) as having been heavily tainted by drugs or other forms of cheating since the very early days (since it was professional). Then we draw a line across the calender and try and make it clean from here on out.

Perhapds the end of the Mayan calender was supposed to be the end of drugs in professional cycling... hard to say what they were thinking as they were all chewwing coca leaves when it was written.
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Old 01-29-13, 03:32 PM   #1649
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Are you joking? Eddy retired in he late 70s. Steroids had been in use by athletes for ~20 years by then. I don't know what he took or didn' take, but he certainly had access to steroids if he had wanted to take them.
Actually, yes, I am joking. It's just funny to me to read all the definitive statements made by BF' self-appointed doping experts. You know what I mean, the geniuses that say the steroids of Eddie's time had minimal effect on performance, while the steroids in Armstrong's era had maximum effect. I agree with what you're saying, I was just mocking the foolish idea that PEDs of the 70s had minimal effect on performance.
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Old 01-29-13, 03:41 PM   #1650
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Actually, yes, I am joking.
OK,then. Ha ha.
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