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Old 04-09-14, 11:10 AM   #1751
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Read "Cycle of Lies" and "Wheelman" and all your questions will be answered.

It was not a level playing field because Postal/Discovery had the process down to, no pun intended, a science with the best people in that business. It was, however level because in order to compete one had to take some exotic stuff to stay in the game. If you were not willing to do so, find another job.

Take note: virtually every rider who left Postal/Discovery and rode for another team later got busted. That's how good they were.

Having seen some of this first hand, it is one different world.
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Old 04-09-14, 11:14 AM   #1752
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
Armstrong was able to hang with a doped-up Contador and finish 3rd in the TdF.

The fact that Armstrong could put himself on the TdF podium at 38 against known PED users tells you all you need to know about his 7 TdF wins out on the road when he was younger.
I hope you are not insinuating that Armstrong rode that Tour clean.

Really....read the books I mentioned. It is an education.
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Old 04-09-14, 11:20 AM   #1753
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Still repeating the company line. See "Wheelmen" and "Cycle of Lies" for the documented truth.

(You also might want to read up on Arthur Lydiard for some perspective on endurance training.)
Sorry...didn't see that post.

I picked up "Cycle" in the Minneapolis airport between flights. Had half of it read before I got home. There was not anything in there I found earth shattering or stunning, but it does give perspective. It really lays out things in a way that people can see what happened. What I found particularly stunning, however, is how the author really lays into Lance's Mom. She's as bad as he is having a little problem with the truth. The whole damn single Mom he and I against the world is bunk.

Fact is had Lance's ego not taken over and he not made that comeback this thread would not exist.
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Old 04-16-14, 08:12 AM   #1754
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Interesting thread. Curious as to how many of this threads participants have actually raced in a higher caliber field than Cat IV's. or even been to France, Italy or Belgium and raced in at least an amateur race.... ??? Or perhaps been persistent enough to have raced as a Pro.. ??

There seems to be a whole point here that is missed.... Pro Cycling is a Business, first and foremost... Same as other professional sports where ethics often take a backseat.... Doping is a societal problem, there isn't anywhere that one can turn without some kind of pharmaceutical advice being suggested to improve your day... These are the times we live in, it's been the reality for decades.

When it comes to results which for sponsors translate to increased brand exposure which ultimately translates to increased revenues, shouldn't the bar be set a lot higher.... It is exhausting to read and listen of the debate between clean and doped athlete's... The problem lies with all of us in society who vehemently follow a professional sport but only ask questions when it is convenient...

I am neither supporting Lance or for that matter crucifying him.. Cannot be done without including everyone else. The hypocrisy of it all should lead anyone to ask when is it convenient for UCI, WADA, USA Cycling and all the past and current sponsors to look the other way, not say anything and then one day declare that these certain offenders should be regarded as criminals...

We would all like a level playing field where the insistent sponsors message is " We need results and we don't want excuses as to Why Not "
isn't the prevailing theme, voiced or not... I don't see where villafying athletes makes us any better, Landis and Hamilton aren't angelic, but so are the rest in this story, one cannot swim in the same pool and say I'm clean. Doesn't work that way.
I still cycle, will race again, and I will follow Pro Cycling because I inherently still believe that the sport is a beautiful sport, the race parcours eclipse other sports. There is a naive hope that perhaps the infantile habits of Pro Sports will continue to recede and the majority will understand that winning at all costs is not the only thing....

In the meantime it's time to get out and ride today ... Although waking up to an inch of snow and 30F temps was unexpected after a 65F+ days... It's New England..
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Old 04-16-14, 01:14 PM   #1755
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Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
Interesting thread. Curious as to how many of this threads participants have actually raced in a higher caliber field than Cat IV's. or even been to France, Italy or Belgium and raced in at least an amateur race.... ??? Or perhaps been persistent enough to have raced as a Pro.. ??

There seems to be a whole point here that is missed.... Pro Cycling is a Business, first and foremost... Same as other professional sports where ethics often take a backseat.... Doping is a societal problem, there isn't anywhere that one can turn without some kind of pharmaceutical advice being suggested to improve your day... These are the times we live in, it's been the reality for decades.

When it comes to results which for sponsors translate to increased brand exposure which ultimately translates to increased revenues, shouldn't the bar be set a lot higher.... It is exhausting to read and listen of the debate between clean and doped athlete's... The problem lies with all of us in society who vehemently follow a professional sport but only ask questions when it is convenient...

I am neither supporting Lance or for that matter crucifying him.. Cannot be done without including everyone else. The hypocrisy of it all should lead anyone to ask when is it convenient for UCI, WADA, USA Cycling and all the past and current sponsors to look the other way, not say anything and then one day declare that these certain offenders should be regarded as criminals...

We would all like a level playing field where the insistent sponsors message is " We need results and we don't want excuses as to Why Not "
isn't the prevailing theme, voiced or not... I don't see where villafying athletes makes us any better, Landis and Hamilton aren't angelic, but so are the rest in this story, one cannot swim in the same pool and say I'm clean. Doesn't work that way.
I still cycle, will race again, and I will follow Pro Cycling because I inherently still believe that the sport is a beautiful sport, the race parcours eclipse other sports. There is a naive hope that perhaps the infantile habits of Pro Sports will continue to recede and the majority will understand that winning at all costs is not the only thing....

In the meantime it's time to get out and ride today ... Although waking up to an inch of snow and 30F temps was unexpected after a 65F+ days... It's New England..
Welcome to the forum. Good luck with what you're looking for from the armchair pundits. I'm reasonably sure you'll be disappointed with the views of the vast majority on this subject. But, stick around and see where you can insert a bit more sense like you've posted above. Perhaps other threads.
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Old 04-16-14, 04:12 PM   #1756
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Welcome to the forum. Good luck with what you're looking for from the armchair pundits. I'm reasonably sure you'll be disappointed with the views of the vast majority on this subject. But, stick around and see where you can insert a bit more sense like you've posted above. Perhaps other threads.
Thank You for the " Welcome Aboard "....
I am not looking for rational statements from the armchair pundits, I know better than to go Toe to Toe with obstinate viewpoints..
I do however know this... I have raced in France as an amateur, ( and had my perceptions aligned to the reality. ) It is absolutely brutal compared to US racing... Bob Roll wasn't kidding and so have many others when they say that if you really want to know where you stand as a racer, than go race in Europe... I have also coached juniors stateside in both cycling and Alpine Ski Racing so I do have a realistic view of the expectations, not only from the racer's point of view but also from the parents, sponsors and last but not least the appropriate governing body.
That last insight came from promoting a 2 day Stage Race for about 5 years.... Lucrative it most certainly wasn't.... Exhaustive and maddening are more to the realities of dealing with the politics of multiple bureaucracies ....

If anything, intelligent debates based on factual information, not suppositions, ludicrous theories and biased soundbites is what will be instrumental in turning the sport towards a better future... But it is dependent on the majority wanting change, not just a handful.
I hear and read the rhetoric but when the personal pocketbook is affected, than all bets are off...
Or in other words, when one is literally threatened to have their livelihood terminated then decisions are not what the outside world can comprehend.... It doesn't justify unethical decisions but it does matter that the whole picture is assessed, not just what is salivicious.
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Old 04-24-14, 05:35 PM   #1757
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Good post
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Old 05-13-14, 10:34 AM   #1758
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Not only are Merckx's palmares an order of magnitude above Armstrong. The manner in which he dominated races is unmatched. When Armstrong wins the Green, Yellow, and Polka dot Jerseys in the same TDF, wins all 3 major tours, wins 5 Milan San Remos, wins more classics than you can shake a stick at, sets an Hour Record, and actually even enters Paris Roubaix, then you might be able to start discussing him alongside Merckx.
Sorry, I'm so late to this thread, but WITHOUT a doubt, Merckx for all the reasons you gave. But Merckx rode during the era of highly individual TdFs not the completely team strategized, domestique-sacrificed implementations we see today. That's not to say Lance was not capable, it more a reflection of the changed emphasis to be conservative to protect the yellow jersey, spread out stage wins through the team where possible but securing the GC at all costs. It is likely we won't ever see the achievement lists the likes of Merckx again.
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Old 05-16-14, 01:14 AM   #1759
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Well looks like Chris Carmichael has been outed as having known what's what from 1995.

After Armstrong drops names, silence prevails - VeloNews.com

No surprise really but that will probably be the end of his career as a training coach.

Former USPS team owner Thomas Weisel has also been outed as well as has 1984 Olympic track, individual sprint gold medalist and USPS team general manager Mark Gorski as having been aware of the USPS doping program.

Last edited by Zinger; 05-16-14 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 05-22-14, 09:59 AM   #1760
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Armstrong is guilty, no question. But when you look at the history of doping in professional sports, it is clear the trickle down effect is pervasive except maybe in curling.

Ex-49er In Class Action Suit Against NFL For ?Culture Of Drug Misuse, Substituting Players? Health For Profit? CBS San Francisco
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