My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news
08-25-12, 11:01 AM
#76
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I don't think he doped- He was tested and never came back positive. Everyone here acts like everyone in cycling takes performance enhancers. I don't think that is true. I raced USCF 14 seasons a long time ago- there's always been talk of pros doping- many have been tested and been caught. That's why they test. If he was tested again and again for stimulants and never tested positive, I don't see how ANY speculative testimony could convict him otherwise- it's all conjecture, and it could all be motivated by money or some kinds of grudge. This isn't due process, it's nonsense.
Cocaine? I did coke once before a short criterium- not to improve my performance, but because I was traveling with a girl and it was a holiday and just for partying kicks. Not a whole lot- it's EXPENSIVE. It was hot that day-in the 90's and I liked to have died- Felt REALLY BAD- not good for the heat at all- It was long before Len Bias, the basketball player who died of heart failure on coke.
I don't know much about doping these days- if they can really test for steroids. I noticed the term "Blood doping" was being bantered about in the L.A. Times- I'm not sure we're even all talking about the same thing. Back in the day 'Blood doping" was not using stimulants- that was just plain "doping" "Blood doping" was taking one's own blood before an event- and usually an event at high altitude, and, with a centrifuge, skimming off only the red cells, that carry oxygen, and then injecting that back in- the effect to carry more oxygen in the blood. I think back in the '70's it was illegal but undetectable, so there were always rumors, mostly about the Olympics and the Pros- it's a complicated thing.
Is this part of the charges? Dunno. Can't tell from the sketchy news articles, and haven't followed it for years.
I think there is something else going on here- sounds almost like extortion or blackmail, or someone wants to just make sensationalist example- which is sure a sign of these times!
It's too bad- I just hate to see due process so obviously stepped all over.
Cocaine? I did coke once before a short criterium- not to improve my performance, but because I was traveling with a girl and it was a holiday and just for partying kicks. Not a whole lot- it's EXPENSIVE. It was hot that day-in the 90's and I liked to have died- Felt REALLY BAD- not good for the heat at all- It was long before Len Bias, the basketball player who died of heart failure on coke.
I don't know much about doping these days- if they can really test for steroids. I noticed the term "Blood doping" was being bantered about in the L.A. Times- I'm not sure we're even all talking about the same thing. Back in the day 'Blood doping" was not using stimulants- that was just plain "doping" "Blood doping" was taking one's own blood before an event- and usually an event at high altitude, and, with a centrifuge, skimming off only the red cells, that carry oxygen, and then injecting that back in- the effect to carry more oxygen in the blood. I think back in the '70's it was illegal but undetectable, so there were always rumors, mostly about the Olympics and the Pros- it's a complicated thing.
Is this part of the charges? Dunno. Can't tell from the sketchy news articles, and haven't followed it for years.
I think there is something else going on here- sounds almost like extortion or blackmail, or someone wants to just make sensationalist example- which is sure a sign of these times!
It's too bad- I just hate to see due process so obviously stepped all over.
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08-25-12, 11:19 AM
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Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
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08-25-12, 11:32 AM
#78
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Lance didnt do it
Regardless the testing system and governing bodies are flawed.
Regardless the testing system and governing bodies are flawed.
08-25-12, 01:25 PM
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I enjoyed watching LA compete from his days on the US National team through his 2005 TDF win. But I also noticed that LA the person was a bit of a d-bag then and showed his true colors in retirement and comeback. I haven't been a fan since that last TDF win but I still consider all of those wins valid.
I hope Spain doesn't change their ways and decide to go after Indurain.
08-25-12, 03:09 PM
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Even 15 years after the fact?
Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
08-25-12, 03:14 PM
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Even 15 years after the fact?
Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
08-25-12, 07:08 PM
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Even 15 years after the fact?
Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
Don't we all have a reasonable expectation of a speedy "trial"? Shouldn't there be a time limitation for these agencies to prove the fact? How would you like to have a drug test you took 15 years ago still hanging over your head? Waiting for some govt. wonks to make a decision that can alter your whole life? That your employer can still take your job away after all those years?
There needs to be a time limitation on these things, or a vendetta can be the result, as we've seen in this case...
I'm trying to follow your thought. Fifteen years ago was 1997. Is this case only about 1997? Is it at all about 1997?
How long is too long for USADA to prepare this case? When did they start -- I'm curious? I do know it was delayed until after the Federal investigation that was shut down without much explanation.
And what is the connection between a time limitation and a vendetta anyway? Do vendettas only start after fifteen years -- why would a lack of time limitations result in a vendetta?
We'd like to hear the evidence that USADA has. If they've had the evidence for years and sat on it, that's one thing. If there is critical, fresh evidence that has arisen in the last couple of years, that's something else.
"When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"
08-27-12, 01:20 PM
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we'll never know if la was doping or not, or to what extent, or to what effect, but we do know something. The process is unacceptably flawed. To have all the testing done immediately after races, and throughout the careers, and have those tests come out negative, then way down the road say there was doping is patently ridiculous (i'm not saying there wasn't).
If failing tests proves doping, then passing them should be acceptable proof of not doping, otherwise why bother with the tests in the first place. I don't care what happens to la since whatever happens people will either believe he won those races or they won't and what usada does won't change anything. But we should take a long hard look at usada, and how they do business, and if they cannot get their act together, consider disbanding it and replacing it with a more clearly defined process.
If failing tests proves doping, then passing them should be acceptable proof of not doping, otherwise why bother with the tests in the first place. I don't care what happens to la since whatever happens people will either believe he won those races or they won't and what usada does won't change anything. But we should take a long hard look at usada, and how they do business, and if they cannot get their act together, consider disbanding it and replacing it with a more clearly defined process.
08-27-12, 10:10 PM
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How did Lance Armstrong cheat all those tests?
Since Lance Armstrong is not fighting the charges, we may never know what he did, but we can analyze the probable claims based on what we know.
I have concluded that Lance Armstrong is a doper. Otherwise, how was he unlucky enough to have ten associates to tell the same malicious lie about him? Why did he associate with those admitted dopers? How did he fail those blood tests by the USADA?
His main defense, however, seems to remain a good one: if Lance Armstrong has been doping for over a decade, then how did he pass over five hundred drug tests? What are the details? Exactly what did he do?
Have you competed in the Tour de France or another high-profile bike race? If so, how were the tests administered? If you needed to cheat, how would you have done it? Would you keep a bag of clean urine hidden down your pants? Could you have substituted the urine without detection? Was anyone watching your penis while you peed into a cup? Are there other other tests beside urine tests?
I have concluded that Lance Armstrong is a doper. Otherwise, how was he unlucky enough to have ten associates to tell the same malicious lie about him? Why did he associate with those admitted dopers? How did he fail those blood tests by the USADA?
His main defense, however, seems to remain a good one: if Lance Armstrong has been doping for over a decade, then how did he pass over five hundred drug tests? What are the details? Exactly what did he do?
Have you competed in the Tour de France or another high-profile bike race? If so, how were the tests administered? If you needed to cheat, how would you have done it? Would you keep a bag of clean urine hidden down your pants? Could you have substituted the urine without detection? Was anyone watching your penis while you peed into a cup? Are there other other tests beside urine tests?
08-27-12, 10:17 PM
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08-27-12, 10:35 PM
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Oh rly! ibtm
You signed up just to post that? Who's sock pocket are you?
You signed up just to post that? Who's sock pocket are you?
08-27-12, 10:44 PM
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08-27-12, 10:53 PM
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I never heard that Lance gave any blood to the USADA. I think that Lance just might get away with telling the USADA to pound sand if the UCI sides with him.
08-27-12, 11:09 PM
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Wow, talk about a weighted question. You've already declared your position, you're not at all interested in a discussion since you've already made your mind, which means you're going to dismiss all evidence to the contrary, which means this is a waste of time.
Also, you're posting in the wrong forum.
Also, you're posting in the wrong forum.
08-27-12, 11:20 PM
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Wow, talk about a weighted question. You've already declared your position, you're not at all interested in a discussion since you've already made your mind, which means you're going to dismiss all evidence to the contrary, which means this is a waste of time.
Also, you're posting in the wrong forum.
Also, you're posting in the wrong forum.
08-27-12, 11:26 PM
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The Facepalm Potential here is incalculable.
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08-28-12, 12:14 AM
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I didn't finish Le Tour (probably because I never started one), so cannot comment this from the pro competition viewpoint.
The same thing happens all over pro sports though. XC skiing and track&field have many instances where an athlete has passed several tests at the time only to get burned later. Either they don't keep up with test method developments, or new and improved tests are applied to their preserved samples from earlier competitions.
Then there are the really desperate methods. A Finnish XC skier deliberately broke his ski binding during the race to avoid testing. Russian XC skiers escaped through the window when testing personnel knocked on their hotel room door. A couple of Greek track & field hopefuls had a "traffic accident" on their way to the competition and were unavailable for testing. Hungarian discus thrower stuffed a bag full of clean urine up his arse, presumably not because that's what floats his boat. Etc.
The same thing happens all over pro sports though. XC skiing and track&field have many instances where an athlete has passed several tests at the time only to get burned later. Either they don't keep up with test method developments, or new and improved tests are applied to their preserved samples from earlier competitions.
Then there are the really desperate methods. A Finnish XC skier deliberately broke his ski binding during the race to avoid testing. Russian XC skiers escaped through the window when testing personnel knocked on their hotel room door. A couple of Greek track & field hopefuls had a "traffic accident" on their way to the competition and were unavailable for testing. Hungarian discus thrower stuffed a bag full of clean urine up his arse, presumably not because that's what floats his boat. Etc.
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08-28-12, 12:45 AM
#100
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Abe, thanks for posting and welcome to Bike Forums, the friendliest forum on the interweb for bicycle riders and riders of bikes.
I'm glad you posted about Lance Armstrong because this is a topic that nobody has ever discussed on this forum. Let me address your questions. I feel I am qualified because I'm an ex-pro cycle racer.
1. He failed the blood tests by the USADA because the levels were off. Normally, levels are on and USADA confirms a passed test. However, because they were off, he failed.
2. He did pass over five hundred drug tests but he also failed five hundred drug tests. He failed to fail them, and a fail is a fail regardless of whether it's good or bad. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.
3. Yes, I've competed in the Tour De France, as well as the Tour De Espana (in Mexico) and the Tour De Italiano. I didn't need to cheat, but since I did, I did it secretly without anybody knowing. I wanted to tell people to brag, but I was able to use my teeth to hold onto my tongue with great force and vigor. Everybody was watching my penis and I kind of liked it to be honest. I can't explain why but somethings just can't be explained.
They also do other tests like math tests, spelling tests, and sometimes science tests.
I'm glad you posted about Lance Armstrong because this is a topic that nobody has ever discussed on this forum. Let me address your questions. I feel I am qualified because I'm an ex-pro cycle racer.
1. He failed the blood tests by the USADA because the levels were off. Normally, levels are on and USADA confirms a passed test. However, because they were off, he failed.
2. He did pass over five hundred drug tests but he also failed five hundred drug tests. He failed to fail them, and a fail is a fail regardless of whether it's good or bad. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.
3. Yes, I've competed in the Tour De France, as well as the Tour De Espana (in Mexico) and the Tour De Italiano. I didn't need to cheat, but since I did, I did it secretly without anybody knowing. I wanted to tell people to brag, but I was able to use my teeth to hold onto my tongue with great force and vigor. Everybody was watching my penis and I kind of liked it to be honest. I can't explain why but somethings just can't be explained.
They also do other tests like math tests, spelling tests, and sometimes science tests.