My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news
10-11-12, 06:18 AM
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Doping was (perhaps still is) a part of the sport, LA was one of the best at the sport during his time (QED). Doping just seems to be another cycling skill he mastered.
What seems to be the problem?
What seems to be the problem?
10-11-12, 06:31 AM
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10-11-12, 06:57 AM
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Nike's slogan of "Just Do It" seems very apropos, perhaps they'll consider adding a syringe graphic?
10-11-12, 06:58 AM
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10-11-12, 07:05 AM
#232
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1) if you simply allow PED's, particularly those that truly change performance, such as EPO, then athletes are compelled to use illegal, potentially dangerous, drugs to be competitive. If you had a child with the potential to be a professional cyclist would you want them to have to choose to give up cycling, or take PEd's?
2) Everyone taking PED's doesn't create a level playing field. First, not everyone can afford the best PED's, or the expertise to use them without detection. So poore cyclists are disadvantaged. Second, given the limititations of how high you can push your hematacrit, EPO eliminates the natural advantage of those with already high hematacrits, and Third, different people respond differently to drugs, so it rewards those who respond well to particular drugs.
So yeah there's a problem.
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10-11-12, 07:27 AM
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and then there's the fact that he coerced his teammates to either use or get the hell off his team.
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10-11-12, 07:28 AM
#234
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livestrong's social media department hires interns to flood the comments at the bottom of online news articles, comment in forums, flood comments on facebook, etc. in an attempt to sway online opinion in a manner not unlike the OP is expressing. livestrong also enlists the services of a PR business called BazaarVoice to do the same. They change the message every week - sometimes it's "This is a witch hunt," or "500-600 tests", or "Never failed a test", or "waste of tax payer dollars." Lately the message has focused on questioning the evidence. Whatever PR narrative is on the white board all the low-wall cubicles are facing that week.
In forums, they have almost always joined within a few days of the news of the day. When they start a thread in a forum, they usually start out with some variation of "I'm just a somewhat naive observer, but..." Then they go into to a diatribe painting a picture of the most awesome person born in the 20th century listing many of the talking points listed above.
In forums, they have almost always joined within a few days of the news of the day. When they start a thread in a forum, they usually start out with some variation of "I'm just a somewhat naive observer, but..." Then they go into to a diatribe painting a picture of the most awesome person born in the 20th century listing many of the talking points listed above.
10-11-12, 08:16 AM
#235
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I was on the fence about the validity of these accusations but now have no doubt he doped.
10-11-12, 08:23 AM
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livestrong's social media department hires interns to flood the comments at the bottom of online news articles, comment in forums, flood comments on facebook, etc. in an attempt to sway online opinion in a manner not unlike the OP is expressing. livestrong also enlists the services of a PR business called BazaarVoice to do the same. They change the message every week - sometimes it's "This is a witch hunt," or "500-600 tests", or "Never failed a test", or "waste of tax payer dollars." Lately the message has focused on questioning the evidence. Whatever PR narrative is on the white board all the low-wall cubicles are facing that week.
In forums, they have almost always joined within a few days of the news of the day. When they start a thread in a forum, they usually start out with some variation of "I'm just a somewhat naive observer, but..." Then they go into to a diatribe painting a picture of the most awesome person born in the 20th century listing many of the talking points listed above.
In forums, they have almost always joined within a few days of the news of the day. When they start a thread in a forum, they usually start out with some variation of "I'm just a somewhat naive observer, but..." Then they go into to a diatribe painting a picture of the most awesome person born in the 20th century listing many of the talking points listed above.
10-11-12, 08:53 AM
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I dont believe he doped but i dont know! Lance is one of my hero's in life. Not only as a cyclist, but as a person. He not only battled a deadly cancer, but he has helped millions of people in the fight against cancer. I respect him in every way possible. But, besides the fact. What do you think happened? Do you think that he was part of the "most sophisticated doping cheat of all time"? OR do you believe he is innocent? I think he is innocent. There were hundreds of tests put up to him from various agencies and none of them actually found any REAL physical evidence that he doped. I think it is complete bull **** that he was on a 15 year investigation and there were no laws that kicked in from it. 15 YEARS!!! could you imagine that hell for 15 years?? I am really pissed off that it was allowed to go on that long with absolutely no evidence, other than the fact that he was dedicated human being, following his dreams. He has also done so much for cancer research, all he wanted was to help people. I feel really bad for him. As an unbiased fan, i am siding with him and do i believe he is innocent. What do you all think?
10-11-12, 08:53 AM
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OP,
Time to wake up and smell the roses. The planet will continue to rotate when Lance no longer holds the place in your heart that he did. There will still be hills to climb and times to beat.
But you might learn a lesson about never again falling for a sucker play like that. Don't feel so bad about it, we have all had our "demi-gods" shall we say, perhaps not as god-like as LA was in some people's eyes, and we have all been disappointed.
This attitude reminds me of the feelings towards Tiger Woods among some golf fanatics, and the difficulties they have had dealing with his fall from grace. The details are highly dissimilar (no evidence that Woods cheated - I consider him to be an honorable man when it comes to golf, one who respects the values of the game), but from the fan's point of view there are similarities. It is rather sad, and it is another reason for an attitude of contempt towards Lance Armstrong. Look at what he has done to some of his fans ........
Time to wake up and smell the roses. The planet will continue to rotate when Lance no longer holds the place in your heart that he did. There will still be hills to climb and times to beat.
But you might learn a lesson about never again falling for a sucker play like that. Don't feel so bad about it, we have all had our "demi-gods" shall we say, perhaps not as god-like as LA was in some people's eyes, and we have all been disappointed.
This attitude reminds me of the feelings towards Tiger Woods among some golf fanatics, and the difficulties they have had dealing with his fall from grace. The details are highly dissimilar (no evidence that Woods cheated - I consider him to be an honorable man when it comes to golf, one who respects the values of the game), but from the fan's point of view there are similarities. It is rather sad, and it is another reason for an attitude of contempt towards Lance Armstrong. Look at what he has done to some of his fans ........
10-11-12, 09:03 AM
#239
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10-11-12, 09:13 AM
#240
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I dont believe he doped but i dont know! Lance is one of my hero's in life. Not only as a cyclist, but as a person. He not only battled a deadly cancer, but he has helped millions of people in the fight against cancer. I respect him in every way possible. But, besides the fact. What do you think happened? Do you think that he was part of the "most sophisticated doping cheat of all time"? OR do you believe he is innocent? I think he is innocent. There were hundreds of tests put up to him from various agencies and none of them actually found any REAL physical evidence that he doped. I think it is complete bull **** that he was on a 15 year investigation and there were no laws that kicked in from it. 15 YEARS!!! could you imagine that hell for 15 years?? I am really pissed off that it was allowed to go on that long with absolutely no evidence, other than the fact that he was dedicated human being, following his dreams. He has also done so much for cancer research, all he wanted was to help people. I feel really bad for him. As an unbiased fan, i am siding with him and do i believe he is innocent. What do you all think?
10-11-12, 09:34 AM
#241
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Incorrect. Livestrong doesn't fund Cancer research. Their mission is "cancer awareness"
https://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do...the-Money-Goes
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...-Lab-Rats.html
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
10-11-12, 09:40 AM
#242
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Incorrect. Livestrong doesn't fund Cancer research. Their mission is "cancer awareness"
https://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do...the-Money-Goes
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...-Lab-Rats.html
https://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do...the-Money-Goes
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...-Lab-Rats.html
Livestrong has done relatively little for the cancer community as a whole.
Anyone who uses the words "cancer research" when talking about Lance can be ignore completely, as he/she clearly hasn't bothered finding even the most basic of facts.
10-11-12, 09:43 AM
#243
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I am beginning to wonder if maybe it's time to embrace dopers.
Many different sports over the last decade have had scandals like this. Baseball, football, American-rules football, etc. Even Olympic sport teams have suspicion at every event.
At the end of the day, we want to see the batter hit harder, the pitcher throw faster, the cyclist ride quicker, etc. If we have the science, the technology, to enhance them for better performance (and thus entertainment) why should we shut them down? All it does is give the advantage to the people with better connections. Think of all the other cyclists, in this case, who lost out because they didn't want to get caught, knowing that they didn't have the resources to pull it off as well as the elite?
It's time to stop giving the gold to the guys with the best connections.
M.
Many different sports over the last decade have had scandals like this. Baseball, football, American-rules football, etc. Even Olympic sport teams have suspicion at every event.
At the end of the day, we want to see the batter hit harder, the pitcher throw faster, the cyclist ride quicker, etc. If we have the science, the technology, to enhance them for better performance (and thus entertainment) why should we shut them down? All it does is give the advantage to the people with better connections. Think of all the other cyclists, in this case, who lost out because they didn't want to get caught, knowing that they didn't have the resources to pull it off as well as the elite?
It's time to stop giving the gold to the guys with the best connections.
M.
10-11-12, 09:47 AM
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Whats funny is one of the recent cycling mags (Bicycling, maybe?) listed all the replacement winners of Lance's victories and that fact that everyone of them was also busted for dope use at one point in their career.
10-11-12, 09:48 AM
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Your timing in starting this thread is impeccable. George Hincapie just confessed today that he doped prior to 2006. He never tested positive. Then you come here and post this crap about Lance never testing positive.
Like many others, you desperately need to catch up on current news. Read Tyler's book for starters.
Like many others, you desperately need to catch up on current news. Read Tyler's book for starters.
10-11-12, 09:51 AM
#247
Senior Member
I am beginning to wonder if maybe it's time to embrace dopers.
Many different sports over the last decade have had scandals like this. Baseball, football, American-rules football, etc. Even Olympic sport teams have suspicion at every event.
At the end of the day, we want to see the batter hit harder, the pitcher throw faster, the cyclist ride quicker, etc. If we have the science, the technology, to enhance them for better performance (and thus entertainment) why should we shut them down? All it does is give the advantage to the people with better connections. Think of all the other cyclists, in this case, who lost out because they didn't want to get caught, knowing that they didn't have the resources to pull it off as well as the elite?
It's time to stop giving the gold to the guys with the best connections.
M.
Many different sports over the last decade have had scandals like this. Baseball, football, American-rules football, etc. Even Olympic sport teams have suspicion at every event.
At the end of the day, we want to see the batter hit harder, the pitcher throw faster, the cyclist ride quicker, etc. If we have the science, the technology, to enhance them for better performance (and thus entertainment) why should we shut them down? All it does is give the advantage to the people with better connections. Think of all the other cyclists, in this case, who lost out because they didn't want to get caught, knowing that they didn't have the resources to pull it off as well as the elite?
It's time to stop giving the gold to the guys with the best connections.
M.
10-11-12, 09:52 AM
#248
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Why not just give them all to me? I ride a bicycle thingy. I haven't taken any illegal drugs (that I know of). I think I should get them. And the gold jersey. And some podium girls to kiss.
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10-11-12, 09:57 AM
#249
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^ Exactly. Anyone who's ever filed a motion for summary judgment understands this.
And in fact USADA explains as much in their report:
USADA addresses at this point the recent criticism of the UCI offered to the media questioning
why it took USADA from August 24 until October 9 (forty-seven days) to issue this Reasoned
Decision. The UCI’s criticism is unfounded. There is no fixed time limit in the rules for issuing
a reasoned decision, therefore, USADA was merely required to issue its reasoned decision
promptly. What is prompt depends on the circumstances in the case and the nature of the
evidence in it. Obviously, USADA did not know that Mr. Armstrong was not going to elect to
go to a hearing until, on the last possible day for choosing, he chose not to do so. Until then,
USADA had been preparing to go to a live hearing in front of neutral arbitrators. Had such a
hearing occurred it is unlikely that it would have begun much before the end of this year.
The task of summarizing the evidence in the case, as this Reasoned Decision does, is much
different from the process of preparing for a hearing where evidence is introduced live and
witnesses testify orally. The evidence supporting this Reasoned Decision is set forth in
Appendices A – AA which include more than twenty affidavits, witness statements, expert
reports, emails, correspondence, photographs, tape recordings, video footage, deposition
transcripts, hearing transcripts, and other data. The documentary materials in these appendices,
by themselves, consist of thousands of pages. Further, in preparing for presenting its case at a
live hearing USADA had, prior to August 24, conducted numerous witness interviews, and
evaluated mountains of other information regarding its likely witnesses. Once Mr. Armstrong
chose not to proceed to a hearing USADA then obtained affidavits from many of its witnesses
whom USADA had anticipated would have otherwise presented their testimony orally in a live
hearing. Thereafter, USADA has described and summarized the evidence in this Reasoned
Decision. Given the volume of materials that USADA has addressed, the forty-seven days took to organize these materials in an appropriate fashion was reasonable
And in fact USADA explains as much in their report:
USADA addresses at this point the recent criticism of the UCI offered to the media questioning
why it took USADA from August 24 until October 9 (forty-seven days) to issue this Reasoned
Decision. The UCI’s criticism is unfounded. There is no fixed time limit in the rules for issuing
a reasoned decision, therefore, USADA was merely required to issue its reasoned decision
promptly. What is prompt depends on the circumstances in the case and the nature of the
evidence in it. Obviously, USADA did not know that Mr. Armstrong was not going to elect to
go to a hearing until, on the last possible day for choosing, he chose not to do so. Until then,
USADA had been preparing to go to a live hearing in front of neutral arbitrators. Had such a
hearing occurred it is unlikely that it would have begun much before the end of this year.
The task of summarizing the evidence in the case, as this Reasoned Decision does, is much
different from the process of preparing for a hearing where evidence is introduced live and
witnesses testify orally. The evidence supporting this Reasoned Decision is set forth in
Appendices A – AA which include more than twenty affidavits, witness statements, expert
reports, emails, correspondence, photographs, tape recordings, video footage, deposition
transcripts, hearing transcripts, and other data. The documentary materials in these appendices,
by themselves, consist of thousands of pages. Further, in preparing for presenting its case at a
live hearing USADA had, prior to August 24, conducted numerous witness interviews, and
evaluated mountains of other information regarding its likely witnesses. Once Mr. Armstrong
chose not to proceed to a hearing USADA then obtained affidavits from many of its witnesses
whom USADA had anticipated would have otherwise presented their testimony orally in a live
hearing. Thereafter, USADA has described and summarized the evidence in this Reasoned
Decision. Given the volume of materials that USADA has addressed, the forty-seven days took to organize these materials in an appropriate fashion was reasonable
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
10-11-12, 10:01 AM
#250
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