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My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news

Old 01-16-13, 01:26 PM
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Sorry, had to do it
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Old 01-16-13, 02:07 PM
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Taking a cue from Blackwater/Xe, it's maybe time to start thinking of a new name for the Foundation, and a new figurehead to get the taste of EPO out of our mouths.


Livechong?


Livegong?


Livelong?


Livethong?


Any others?

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Old 01-16-13, 02:11 PM
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How far fetched would it be to think that his bout with cancer could have been caused by several years of drug use to begin with?

All the ads for T-replacements warn about cancer as a side effect and I'd be willing to bet they're prescribed at fairly low doses compared with what someone looking for an athletic performance boost would be taking.

Speculating of course.
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Old 01-16-13, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RJM
There isn't enough money in curing cancer, the money is in the treating it.
1) We do have cures for cancer, and they're actually quite effective in most cases. E.g. breast cancer survival rates have nearly tripled in the past 60 years.

2) We do know some ways to prevent various cancers, including "don't smoke cigarettes" and "minimize sun exposure" and so forth. There's plenty of money in nicotine gum and sunscreen.

3) Research has placed significant resources and high priority on cancer research since the 1970s.

4) "Cancer" is an incredibly complex family of diseases. It's not like smallpox or polio, where we can whip up a vaccine in a few weeks (or months or years).
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Old 01-16-13, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by saratoga
How far fetched would it be to think that his bout with cancer could have been caused by several years of drug use to begin with?
Extremely unlikely.
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Old 01-16-13, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
Taking a cue from Blackwater/Xe, it's maybe time to start thinking of a new name for the Foundation, and a new figurehead to get the taste of EPO out of our mouths. Livechong? Livegong? Livelong? Livethong?

Any others?
"Closed"
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Old 01-16-13, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by saratoga
How far fetched would it be to think that his bout with cancer could have been caused by several years of drug use to begin with?

All the ads for T-replacements warn about cancer as a side effect and I'd be willing to bet they're prescribed at fairly low doses compared with what someone looking for an athletic performance boost would be taking.

Speculating of course.
Increased chances of various cancers has been linked to steroid abuse and particularly HGH for years, but the actual scientific evidence is not very strong. For obvious reasons, conducting such a study is difficult.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
Originally Posted by saratoga
How far fetched would it be to think that his bout with cancer could have been caused by several years of drug use to begin with?
Extremely unlikely.
Unless you're forgetting the sarcasting winky smiley again, BZAAAT!


Many have speculate exactly that, Saratoga. In light of recent revelations, it's decidedly short-fetched.

Last edited by calamarichris; 01-16-13 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rowan
Which is a real shame.
I understand what happened. I understand why it happened. I understand it happened in the past. I understand omerta. I understand what people did to compete. That's why I don't care. It was what it was. I hope it changed. I doubt it. When 75% of high school kids say it's ok to cheat (poll) and 50% say copying an answer from someone else is not even cheating, I doubt anything much will really change. It's how society is today. Fifty one percent of hs students admit to having cheated. Wtf do you think will happen when the Tour de France is on the line?
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Old 01-16-13, 03:14 PM
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What are you, French?

Originally Posted by calamarichris
He went as fast as he could...
Yes, it's called "attacking."

Attacking the team leader, who you promised to help win the race, is called "betrayal."

Suggesting that this behavior somehow helped Lemond, or made him a "true champion" -- while having benefitted from Lemond's support in previous tours, and from teammates who should have helped Lemond during that race -- is called a "lame excuse."

There's a reason why pretty much everyone except Hinault has the same take on 1986. It's because Hinault wanted to win, regardless of who got screwed in the process.


Originally Posted by calamarichris
This Armstrong episode (and a few other major news stories between the year 2000 and 2010, that also turned out to be nonsense) has given us all a very good reason to question the mainstream line, IMO.
Or not.

Armstrong indulged in years of manipulation, intimidation, deceit and bribery to prevent anyone from exposing his doping.

In contrast, Hinault didn't hide what he was doing. Why bother? Lemond was American, Hinault was French. The French press and spectators didn't care that Hinault went back on his word.

How does Armstrong's behavior affect anything other than our opinion of events long before he was involved? Should we question Eddy Merckx's reputation, because Armstrong was a liar? Should we revise our opinions of the Anquetil-Poulidor rivalry on that basis? Should we rewrite Euene Christophe's broken-fork incident from 1913, because Armstrong doped?

Armstrong's actions cast doubt on how the media treated Armstrong, and that's about it.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lostforawhile
lol I ordered a cheap water bottle from ebay and I just opened it while reading this thread, it just happens to be a Tour de France labeled bottle, what are the odds? the picture showed a plain black and yellow bottle
There are no words...
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Old 01-16-13, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by saratoga
How far fetched would it be to think that his bout with cancer could have been caused by several years of drug use to begin with?

All the ads for T-replacements warn about cancer as a side effect and I'd be willing to bet they're prescribed at fairly low doses compared with what someone looking for an athletic performance boost would be taking.

Speculating of course.
I read somewhere that even Ferrari wondered that same thing, so you're not out in left field. (of course, thinking along the same lines as a slimy doctor probably doesn't make you feel any better!)
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Old 01-16-13, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
Armstrong's actions cast doubt on how the media treated Armstrong, and that's about it.


You guys really need to remember the winky smiley at the end, so we don't make the mistake of thinking your perspective is so brazenly indifferent to reality.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
I understand what happened. I understand why it happened. I understand it happened in the past. I understand omerta. I understand what people did to compete. That's why I don't care. It was what it was. I hope it changed. I doubt it. When 75% of high school kids say it's ok to cheat (poll) and 50% say copying an answer from someone else is not even cheating, I doubt anything much will really change. It's how society is today. Fifty one percent of hs students admit to having cheated. Wtf do you think will happen when the Tour de France is on the line?
Agree. To a point. While your points above have some validity, what they DON'T address is what percentage of people think it's OK to be an arrogant, cutthroat, back-stabbing weasel? That's my issue with this bozo. Not that he doped, but that he's a world class ass.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:45 PM
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But, there aren't laws or rules against being arrogant, cutthroat, back-stabbing, weaseling or being an ass?

In fact, some would argue those are some the traits required to reach the pinnacle of competitive individual sport.

I'm just waiting for everyone to clue into the fact that the Olympics and Professional sport need to go their seperate ways. As it once was.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t
Armstrong. Not just the greatest US cyclist, but the greatest cyclist of all time IMO.

Greg Lemond should have, could have, would have... Armstrong did.

I also happen to believe that Greg LeMond doped, & its a fact Merckx was guilty of doping, just not EPO. So Armstrong tops them all.
Showing your opinion is far from informed.

In cycling terms Armstrong does not even make the break the top 3 are in.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ILClyde
Agree. To a point. While your points above have some validity, what they DON'T address is what percentage of people think it's OK to be an arrogant, cutthroat, back-stabbing weasel? That's my issue with this bozo. Not that he doped, but that he's a world class ass.


It's funny....many of the people you watch scoring touchdowns, making slam dunks, scoring goals...in other words at the top of their game sort of are that way. Doesn't make it right. I know a few...just know when to pick my fights. ALl these guys doped and lied about it. It's been going on since the bike was invented and thought it would be cool to have a race. In e big scheme of things, it really does not matter and all the bilogical passports in the world wont stop it. I'll bet, as I am writing this someone is figuring a way around the current tests.

One man's world class ass hole is someone else's father...

Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-16-13 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 01-16-13, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
Well, I'm bored, so....


• Won 3 Tours, not just 1989

I'd agree the guy is a little bit unhinged, but he often doesn't get the respect he deserves.
Plus two other podium finishes, one of which could have been on the top step.

5 podium finishes in his first five TdF's. Not a bad record.
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Old 01-16-13, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bigfred
But, there aren't laws or rules against being arrogant, cutthroat, back-stabbing, weaseling or being an ass?

In fact, some would argue those are some the traits required to reach the pinnacle of competitive individual sport.

I'm just waiting for everyone to clue into the fact that the Olympics and Professional sport need to go their seperate ways. As it once was.
You mean like when the Soviets and East Germans dominated the Olympics? Talk about doping. Ever read the stories of what happened to the East German "women" swimmers? It was not pretty.
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Old 01-16-13, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior

It's funny....many of the people you watch scoring touchdowns, making slam dunks, scoring goals...in other words at the top of their game sort of are that way. Doesn't make it right. I know a few...just know when to pick my fights. ALl these guys doped and lied about it. It's been going on since the bike was invented and thought it would be cool to have a race. In e big scheme of things, it really does not matter and all the bilogical passports in the world wont stop it. I'll bet, as I am writing this someone is figuring a way around the current tests.

One man's world class ass hole is someone else's father...

I feel sorry for those kids. Ironically, Lance sort of agrees with me that it sucks to have a loser dad.

From "Every Second Counts" (2003):
"Luke's name is Armstrong and people know that name, and when he goes to school I don't want them to say, `Oh yeah, your dad's the big fake, the doper.' That would just kill me,''
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Old 01-16-13, 04:24 PM
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An interesting tidbit:

https://m.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisc...of.html?r=full
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Old 01-16-13, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by calamarichris
I disagree with the part about Lemond being unhinged; the only sane man in an insane world full of partisans chanting how clean Armstrong was.
Also disagree with the Badger stabbing anyone in the back. The commentary certainly called Hinault's motives into question, but I've watched the DVD dozens of times, and I'm convinced the Badger was going out with panache. Until the '89 Tour, everyone said that was the most dramatic Tour in memory, (thanks mostly to Hinault IMO.)
Once upon a time I drank the lemond/Hinault coolaid.

But on a local club ride I talked with a rider who had once raced and was rather astute. He pointed out that Lemond was an idiot if he thought Hinault would not be tempted to try for a 6th TDF win and that Hinault then took a path that would allow him the chance while more or less keeping his word.

After that I dug a bit and read an interview with Andy Hampstein that demolished the popular American version of things while still showing the split in the La Vie Claire team.

Per Hampstein Hinault had one rider working for him, Lemond had 2 Hampstien and Bauer. Hampstein at first thought all the rest were working only for Hinault but learned differently when he was dropped off the back after giving his all to help Lemond and thought his top 10 position was gone, only to see 2 FRENCH riders from La Vie Claire drop back to help pull him back. When thanked them later and mentioned he hoped they would not have problems because of it one of them responded with somethgin like 'Are you crazy? Your are in 4th palce that is 75,000 francs!'.

Hinault took the path where he could claim to be helping Lemond yet have his chance. He attacked and broke legs left and right. In doing that he destroyed the field. And before it was over he had his chance to win. At one point he had a big enough lead he could easily have defended it. Instead he continued to attack and Lemond countered and took back the time he needed.

I think in the end Hinault decided at the least he was not going to win like Anquetil. If he won number 6 it would be like Merckx or not at all. If he was going to in hte end break his word it would be with decent deniability and with major flash.

EDIT:

One would also do well to look at where Americans got their chance ot Ride in the TDF. IThe chance came riding for La Vie Claire. It came through Hinault. Now I think Hinault's motivation was selfish and smart. He found a source of major talent that was helpful to him. But he, or at least his team, is the one who found it and opened the door. I'm inclined to think Hinault had a significant part in some of the changes that came after that, where Americans, Austrailians and others became part of the Tour and the Tour changes from the top Grand Tour, but still not that different from the Giro, to THE Tour, the one race people in non-cycling countries know about even if they know of no other race.

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Old 01-16-13, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
You mean like when the Soviets and East Germans dominated the Olympics? Talk about doping. Ever read the stories of what happened to the East German "women" swimmers? It was not pretty.
Or, like the Chinese are beginning to do now?

No.

And, no. I haven't read any specifics about the stories of the East German swimmers. But, I can imagine.

Cleaning up Olympic sport and the viability of Professional cycling are two different cases.

The UCI, as much as some of us dislike them, are rightfully proud of their progress at increasing Pro Tour rider salaries. I believe there is not a rider in the Pro Tour last year who wasn't paid at least 80 or 85k euro. That is a vast improvement over just a few years ago when some where on as little as 35k.

The scenario that allows such improvements is multifaceted. But, it has a lot to do with the 'product' and value thereof the UCI and the teams have to offer to potential sponsors (historic, current and prospective). Interesting enough, how the riders are managing their health probably has less consequence on that product than ensuring the anticipated riders are healthy, completing and 'ensuring' there aren't constant scandals.

As we make large inroads into how rider health is managed we will see to some regard a higher attrition rate over the season. Fewer riders will capable of carrying the neccessary workload to train and complete all events. Team rosters will have to grow in order to ensure fresh riders over the course of the season with a corresponding decrease in rider wages to reflect this. Increased variability in team rosters from event to event will decrease the value of the product to team sponsors and so team revenues will be adjusted down. With further reductions in pay for all staff involved, including the riders. And, as the heavy training and competition schedules take their toll on riders who should be increasingly limited in their health management options, careers will be shortened. Further reducing their life time earning potential as a professional cyclist.

We the spectators will of course benefit from this, with more drama within the peleton. More broken riders, unable to recover sufficiently dropped or left along the roadside. And generally, less boring tours than this past years TDF, which much like the LA years, saw a team field a group of incredibly well matched and fit riders (largely of the same nationality), capable of riding tempo at a pace which greatly discouraged attacks and with the reserve to squash any that might dare.

And, to bring all this back on topic. How does Tygart's reasoned decission, or, Lance's presumed admission tonight change for the better professional cycling tomorrow?

It doesn't really, that I see.

It doesn't address the looming spectre of genetic engineering. It doesn't 'do' anything to decrease the use of PED's within the peleton.

So, what's being accomplished?

Vidication or revenge for the whining, snivelling, back stabbers, who once they got popped for drugs after leaving Lance Inc. decided to 'come clean' about all that 'they' had done, is about it from my perspective.

The only ones I have much sympathy for are the Andreu's.
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Old 01-16-13, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
Why not. I may as well cast the inevitable "Merckx" vote.
Another vote on Merckx who I believe was more naturally gifted than any other cyclist of all time, appears to have been less dependent on the juice and always spoke against the use of drugs, and could beat you in any discipline... even in his senior years I understand that when he gets on a bike he is a force to be reckoned with.

He should have won at least 6 times and maybe 7 but skipped a year because of death threats and in his last TdF he came in second and said he did not perform at his best although he did have a broken jaw and was unable to eat solid food.

Merckx is THE man.

Period.
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Old 01-16-13, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bigfred
Or, like the Chinese are beginning to do now?

No.

And, no. I haven't read any specifics about the stories of the East German swimmers. But, I can imagine.

Cleaning up Olympic sport and the viability of Professional cycling are two different cases.

The UCI, as much as some of us dislike them, are rightfully proud of their progress at increasing Pro Tour rider salaries. I believe there is not a rider in the Pro Tour last year who wasn't paid at least 80 or 85k euro. That is a vast improvement over just a few years ago when some where on as little as 35k.

The scenario that allows such improvements is multifaceted. But, it has a lot to do with the 'product' and value thereof the UCI and the teams have to offer to potential sponsors (historic, current and prospective). Interesting enough, how the riders are managing their health probably has less consequence on that product than ensuring the anticipated riders are healthy, completing and 'ensuring' there aren't constant scandals.

As we make large inroads into how rider health is managed we will see to some regard a higher attrition rate over the season. Fewer riders will capable of carrying the neccessary workload to train and complete all events. Team rosters will have to grow in order to ensure fresh riders over the course of the season with a corresponding decrease in rider wages to reflect this. Increased variability in team rosters from event to event will decrease the value of the product to team sponsors and so team revenues will be adjusted down. With further reductions in pay for all staff involved, including the riders. And, as the heavy training and competition schedules take their toll on riders who should be increasingly limited in their health management options, careers will be shortened. Further reducing their life time earning potential as a professional cyclist.

We the spectators will of course benefit from this, with more drama within the peleton. More broken riders, unable to recover sufficiently dropped or left along the roadside. And generally, less boring tours than this past years TDF, which much like the LA years, saw a team field a group of incredibly well matched and fit riders (largely of the same nationality), capable of riding tempo at a pace which greatly discouraged attacks and with the reserve to squash any that might dare.

And, to bring all this back on topic. How does Tygart's reasoned decission, or, Lance's presumed admission tonight change for the better professional cycling tomorrow?

It doesn't really, that I see.

It doesn't address the looming spectre of genetic engineering. It doesn't 'do' anything to decrease the use of PED's within the peleton.

So, what's being accomplished?

Vidication or revenge for the whining, snivelling, back stabbers, who once they got popped for drugs after leaving Lance Inc. decided to 'come clean' about all that 'they' had done, is about it from my perspective.

The only ones I have much sympathy for are the Andreu's.
It's interesting, and sort of tragic, the evolution of the die hard Lance fans. Where once the people telling the truth could be dismissed and insulted, now they must rely on vague, serpentine arguments regarding the nature of man or long-winded philosophical debates regarding the 'good of cycling'.
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