My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news
01-28-13, 09:01 PM
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01-28-13, 09:09 PM
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So what we've established so far is that every Tour Champion except for Lemond doped. And possibly Hinault.
I'm still waiting for some evidence on the latter (besides the bitter, butthurt Armstrong partisans shrieking "Duh! He's French therefore they didn't test him/swept it under the rug!" )
It's a willful leap of assumption and a grave injustice to claim that just because your hero was proven a fraud and eventually forced to confess to his own cheating and lying, that therefore all other competitors are cheaters & liars as well.
I'm still waiting for some evidence on the latter (besides the bitter, butthurt Armstrong partisans shrieking "Duh! He's French therefore they didn't test him/swept it under the rug!" )
It's a willful leap of assumption and a grave injustice to claim that just because your hero was proven a fraud and eventually forced to confess to his own cheating and lying, that therefore all other competitors are cheaters & liars as well.
Last edited by calamarichris; 01-28-13 at 09:15 PM.
01-28-13, 10:11 PM
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Sorry, just checkin' in after a couple of days. But it looks like the other chaps covered it for me. See below.
Succinct and to the point.
Yes
Thanks, I would not have explained any differently.
He won every major grand tour at least twice.
Hinault won 5 also, and other than vague rumors and the usual "everyone was doping so he must have been too" logic, nothing has ever stuck. LeMond backs him on riding clean while they were teammates on La Vie Claire. And he had no great love for the Badger after 1986.
No one really believes that Indurain won his 5 clean, on the other hand.
Hinault won 5 also, and other than vague rumors and the usual "everyone was doping so he must have been too" logic, nothing has ever stuck. LeMond backs him on riding clean while they were teammates on La Vie Claire. And he had no great love for the Badger after 1986.
No one really believes that Indurain won his 5 clean, on the other hand.
Setting aside doping issues, there is no serious argument that Armstrong holds a candle to Merckx.
To address your specific question, Merckx won 5 tours. However you have to realize that the TDF while the most important race on the calender, was not the overwhelmingly dominant focus of the cycling world as it is today. Merckx could have won more TDFs had he chose to. One year, he did not even ride the TDF, choosing instead to accomplish the Giro, Vuelta double, and he might have won another TDF had he not been punched by a spectator.
Then you get to how Merckx dominated the TDF. Merckx holds the record for most days in Yellow, Most stage wins, most multiple jerseys. Armstrong is well down in all those categories. And Merckx is the only rider to ever win all the jerseys in one TDF. So looking at just the TDF, it's a draw; Armstrong with 2 more wins, Merckx with more impressive overall performances.
Then beyond the TDF, there is simply no comparison. Grand Tours go 11 to 7 for Merckx. Classics wins go 28 to 1 for Merckx. Hour record, 1-0 for Merckx. Monuments wins go 19-0 to Merckx. World Championship Road Race 3-2 Merckx. Super Prestige Pernod or UCI Pro Tour championships 7-0 Merckx. 525 Pro victories for Merckx, compared to a relative handful for Armstrong outsied the TDF.
There is simply no credible argument that Armstrong begins to comapre to Merckx, unless you take such a myopic view of Pro Cycling that nothing beyond the TDF matters.
To address your specific question, Merckx won 5 tours. However you have to realize that the TDF while the most important race on the calender, was not the overwhelmingly dominant focus of the cycling world as it is today. Merckx could have won more TDFs had he chose to. One year, he did not even ride the TDF, choosing instead to accomplish the Giro, Vuelta double, and he might have won another TDF had he not been punched by a spectator.
Then you get to how Merckx dominated the TDF. Merckx holds the record for most days in Yellow, Most stage wins, most multiple jerseys. Armstrong is well down in all those categories. And Merckx is the only rider to ever win all the jerseys in one TDF. So looking at just the TDF, it's a draw; Armstrong with 2 more wins, Merckx with more impressive overall performances.
Then beyond the TDF, there is simply no comparison. Grand Tours go 11 to 7 for Merckx. Classics wins go 28 to 1 for Merckx. Hour record, 1-0 for Merckx. Monuments wins go 19-0 to Merckx. World Championship Road Race 3-2 Merckx. Super Prestige Pernod or UCI Pro Tour championships 7-0 Merckx. 525 Pro victories for Merckx, compared to a relative handful for Armstrong outsied the TDF.
There is simply no credible argument that Armstrong begins to comapre to Merckx, unless you take such a myopic view of Pro Cycling that nothing beyond the TDF matters.
01-29-13, 09:29 AM
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Well it's pretty obvious that doping in Eddy's era had minimal effect. There is no comparison with Lance's. You can say that Lance was the best doper, but in Eddy's case this is not a reasonable conclusion.
Of course everyone has heard this by now. Folks still saying it have simply chosen to believe, for whatever personal reasons.
Of course everyone has heard this by now. Folks still saying it have simply chosen to believe, for whatever personal reasons.
01-29-13, 10:22 AM
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My understanding is that doping has been rampant since the very early days of the sport. Cocaine, amphetimenes, whatever else they could get their hands on. Read accounts of racing written by old timers who were involved.
While there may be little 'eveidence,' it is actually pretty safe to assume they were all doping. It seems all the testing has been very very flawed (chance of false-negative close to 100%) and all we have to go on is the word of the riders.
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
While there may be little 'eveidence,' it is actually pretty safe to assume they were all doping. It seems all the testing has been very very flawed (chance of false-negative close to 100%) and all we have to go on is the word of the riders.
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
01-29-13, 11:21 AM
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...
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
Even though Eddy was caught doping, he is still highly respected as a cyclist. Regardless of LA's character flaws (and lack of conscience), he's still one hell of cyclist. However, people seem quite ready to write him of as the guy who couldn't even balance on two wheels except that he took a "TdF Victory Pill" (coming soon to a pharmacy near you).
01-29-13, 11:24 AM
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I'm not sure where you see anyone painting his as that.
Nor is it reasonable to compare the kind of doping Merckx did with that of the modern era.
Nor is it reasonable to compare the kind of doping Merckx did with that of the modern era.
01-29-13, 11:33 AM
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Also known as 'NOW'
I don't think there is any indication that the sport has cleaned up or will be cleaning up. The riders, the sponsors, the coaches are happy to crucify Lance for his crimes and keep on doing what they have ALWAYS done with a wink and a nod.
I don't think there is any indication that the sport has cleaned up or will be cleaning up. The riders, the sponsors, the coaches are happy to crucify Lance for his crimes and keep on doing what they have ALWAYS done with a wink and a nod.
01-29-13, 11:33 AM
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You know, I would too. Unfortunately for us, it seems Frankie is an exceptional liar and tiptoes around the truth as if he were classically trained ballet-dancer. However, we do have Frankie's and Betsy's words on the matter, and if we look at the timeline Frankie had publically outlined of his doping and look at his affidavit and use our thinking-caps, we can see that Frankie's (and possibly Betsy's) BS runs pretty deep.
Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 01-29-13 at 11:52 AM.
01-29-13, 11:36 AM
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My understanding is that doping has been rampant since the very early days of the sport. Cocaine, amphetimenes, whatever else they could get their hands on. Read accounts of racing written by old timers who were involved.
While there may be little 'eveidence,' it is actually pretty safe to assume they were all doping. It seems all the testing has been very very flawed (chance of false-negative close to 100%) and all we have to go on is the word of the riders.
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
While there may be little 'eveidence,' it is actually pretty safe to assume they were all doping. It seems all the testing has been very very flawed (chance of false-negative close to 100%) and all we have to go on is the word of the riders.
Many riders, Eddy included, were caught at one time or another, served a suspension (probably very short by todays standards), and kept on truckin... being more careful not to be caught in the future. What Eddy is not accused of doing is orchestrating a distribution scheme and code of silence. Nor is he accused of besmirching the character or suing everyone who dared question his behaviour.
Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 01-29-13 at 11:50 AM.
01-29-13, 11:37 AM
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In all cases, they took substances to enhance their performance in contavention of the rules (except for the very earliest years before they thought to make rules against it). The use was widespread, and made it very difficult for someone to win unless he was also cheating.
What's different exaclty? That the drugs are more effective?
01-29-13, 11:40 AM
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Just the vibe that seems to be coming through. Admittedly, I get that vibe more from non-cyclists than from this thread.
I think the kind of doping is irrelevant. Just because it was less effective, it was still giving them an edge and it was still cheating. I'm not defending LA's doping. He cheated and deserves to be banned.
I think the kind of doping is irrelevant. Just because it was less effective, it was still giving them an edge and it was still cheating. I'm not defending LA's doping. He cheated and deserves to be banned.
01-29-13, 12:17 PM
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Are you joking? Eddy retired in he late 70s. Steroids had been in use by athletes for ~20 years by then. I don't know what he took or didn' take, but he certainly had access to steroids if he had wanted to take them.
01-29-13, 12:17 PM
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I just can't believe some of you are proposing that "cheating" isn't so bad if the affects of it aren't as great as later opportunities provide.
I admire Merckx. I have a frame bearing his name in the garage.
But, while potentially being the greatest cyclist of all time, he was also a doper, a cheat, and a 'boss' of the peleton, much like Lance.
This thread is starting to loose me, as I wonder when we get to start looking ahead and put Lance behind us. They've stripped the titles. He's said, "yes" to Operah. The only thing left is settling of the civil suits.
I admire Merckx. I have a frame bearing his name in the garage.
But, while potentially being the greatest cyclist of all time, he was also a doper, a cheat, and a 'boss' of the peleton, much like Lance.
This thread is starting to loose me, as I wonder when we get to start looking ahead and put Lance behind us. They've stripped the titles. He's said, "yes" to Operah. The only thing left is settling of the civil suits.
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01-29-13, 12:23 PM
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You know, I would too. Unfortunately for us, it seems Frankie is an exceptional liar and tiptoes around the truth as if he were classically trained ballet-dancer. However, we do have Frankie's and Betsy's words on the matter, and if we look at the timeline Frankie had publically outlined of his doping and look at his affidavit and use our thinking-caps, we can see that Frankie's (and possibly Betsy's) BS runs pretty deep.
01-29-13, 12:31 PM
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Please, I am interested to see some research suggesting that the doping practices of this time were especially effective. I await your learned response.
01-29-13, 12:54 PM
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Just because guys did stuff doesn't mean it actually had a performance advantage. Cyclists used to smoke before climbs because they believed it opened up their lungs? Ever taken an upper? I have. It just made me jittery and ill. Crap, they killed Tom Simpson. One simply can't compare it to EPO simply for the fact that even if the doping methodologies had some effect they did not nullify ones ability to race clean against those riders. That changed with pervasive epo and blood manipulation.
That isn't to say that it isn't cheating or bad. Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
That isn't to say that it isn't cheating or bad. Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
01-29-13, 02:07 PM
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Just because guys did stuff doesn't mean it actually had a performance advantage. Cyclists used to smoke before climbs because they believed it opened up their lungs? Ever taken an upper? I have. It just made me jittery and ill. Crap, they killed Tom Simpson. One simply can't compare it to EPO simply for the fact that even if the doping methodologies had some effect they did not nullify ones ability to race clean against those riders. That changed with pervasive epo and blood manipulation.
That isn't to say that it isn't cheating or bad. Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
That isn't to say that it isn't cheating or bad. Simply that the sport went to a place where it was impossible to be involved and clean.
01-29-13, 02:43 PM
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01-29-13, 02:49 PM
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Those statements aren't even remotely contradictory. In fact they're comparing two different eras.
For example: Even if you could prove that taking uppers had some effect on race performance, their use did not preclude clean riders from winning. The same can not be said of EPO and modern blood manipulation techniques. Their ability to increase watts/kg made it so that clean riders simply couldn't be competitive.
For example: Even if you could prove that taking uppers had some effect on race performance, their use did not preclude clean riders from winning. The same can not be said of EPO and modern blood manipulation techniques. Their ability to increase watts/kg made it so that clean riders simply couldn't be competitive.
Last edited by gsteinb; 01-29-13 at 03:06 PM.
01-29-13, 02:50 PM
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I didn't realize the second statement was aimed at a different era.
01-29-13, 03:06 PM
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Those statements aren't even remotely contradictory. In fact they're comparing two different eras.
For example: Even if you could prove that taking uppers had some effect on race performance, their use did not preclude clean riders from winning. The same can not be said of EPO and modern blood manipulation techniques. Their ability to increase watts/kg made it so that clean riders simply couldn't not be competitive.
For example: Even if you could prove that taking uppers had some effect on race performance, their use did not preclude clean riders from winning. The same can not be said of EPO and modern blood manipulation techniques. Their ability to increase watts/kg made it so that clean riders simply couldn't not be competitive.
Have you ever tried to circumnavigate France on a bicycle in 3 weeks without drugs? I assure you it would not be easy.
I think it is time we all look at professional cycling (all disciplines) as having been heavily tainted by drugs or other forms of cheating since the very early days (since it was professional). Then we draw a line across the calender and try and make it clean from here on out.
Perhapds the end of the Mayan calender was supposed to be the end of drugs in professional cycling... hard to say what they were thinking as they were all chewwing coca leaves when it was written.
01-29-13, 03:32 PM
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Actually, yes, I am joking. It's just funny to me to read all the definitive statements made by BF' self-appointed doping experts. You know what I mean, the geniuses that say the steroids of Eddie's time had minimal effect on performance, while the steroids in Armstrong's era had maximum effect. I agree with what you're saying, I was just mocking the foolish idea that PEDs of the 70s had minimal effect on performance.