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  1. #1
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    What about Indurain?

    So many people are utterly sure Lance doped, but no one questions the cleanness of Miguel Indurain. He dominated the tour for quite a while.

    If Lance doped, he should be stricken from the books, as should all dopers. I'm just curious why you never hear anything about Indurain.

  2. #2
    Señor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    So you'd award the victories to the runner-ups, who might have been just as guilty as the winner? I don't see that as a solution.
    The search for inner peace continues...

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    Senior Member rouleour's Avatar
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    Miguelon and Lance, Two completely different riders, Both special in their own way, both patrons of the peloton during their time, but only one knew how to treat people and riders with respect!

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    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    I know this is a radical concept, but: You should at least have a tad of evidence before firing off accusations.

    I might add that an exceptional performance isn't proof of anything. Lemond was a strong competitor but few people (if any) accuse him of doping. Alternately, there are plenty of workaday guys in the peloton who dope just to hold onto their job as a domestique.

  5. #5
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Looks like a new Armstrong fan has joined. Welcome Hambonio!
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    So you'd award the victories to the runner-ups, who might have been just as guilty as the winner? I don't see that as a solution.
    Yeah, the only solution is sad to say, what baseball did. Do what you can to clean it up, and once testing starts punish the hell out of people who get caught. But if they dont fail a test, they dont get punished. I know that'll piss off Armstrong haters, but face it the best racers are sometimes the best cheaters too (if you assume he cheats). Trust me, I hate it that MLB is celebrating Aroids 600th homerun, but if he hadnt had his name leaked he'd never have admitted it.

    I think the best answer is to move on, and stop asterisking, or thinking about changing results of races.

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    +1

  8. #8
    Senior Member collegeskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechKnowGN View Post
    Yeah, the only solution is sad to say, what baseball did. Do what you can to clean it up, and once testing starts punish the hell out of people who get caught. But if they dont fail a test, they dont get punished. I know that'll piss off Armstrong haters, but face it the best racers are sometimes the best cheaters too (if you assume he cheats). Trust me, I hate it that MLB is celebrating Aroids 600th homerun, but if he hadnt had his name leaked he'd never have admitted it.

    I think the best answer is to move on, and stop asterisking, or thinking about changing results of races.
    Looking at MLB to what to do in PED cases is like asking a 15 year old how to drive. What is there punish the hell out of guys 50 games or something not even a full season.

    And cycling and the TDF already have a precedent on former winners admitting doping. Riis admitted doping (yeah Mr. 60% himself) and ASO first struck him from the record book, without naming a winner at all. But has since (the next year I believe) put him back into the record book but attached a note that says he doped. I think this is about as fair are your going to get.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by collegeskier View Post
    Looking at MLB to what to do in PED cases is like asking a 15 year old how to drive. What is there punish the hell out of guys 50 games or something not even a full season.

    And cycling and the TDF already have a precedent on former winners admitting doping. Riis admitted doping (yeah Mr. 60% himself) and ASO first struck him from the record book, without naming a winner at all. But has since (the next year I believe) put him back into the record book but attached a note that says he doped. I think this is about as fair are your going to get.

    Baseball has had it's share of steroid users, but endurance sports in which you can cheat via manipulating bl hematocrit levels makes cheating in cycling far, far easier than cheating in a sport in which the primary drug use is steroids. With steroids, there are metabolites that can be tested for, and the cheating athlete only has to take masking agents to mask that drug. However, even masking agents can have metabolites that can be tested for. With blood doping, the tests are not good enough to find traces of synthetic EPO use. Thus, a cheating athlete (like Armstrong) can test negative over and over again, while also falsely claiming how he's tested numerous time, but never test positive.

    Anyway, yeah. It has been suspected that Indurain EPOed the hell out of those Tour wins.
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  10. #10
    Stratiotika ktemata
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    Actually, baseball's primary PED was HGH as far as I am aware. I don't believe there was even a test for that until very recently.

  11. #11
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikephoros View Post
    Actually, baseball's primary PED was HGH as far as I am aware. I don't believe there was even a test for that until very recently.

    Actually, there was. The problem was with the "clear". It's a designer drug that wasn't able to be tested for, until the BALCO case investigation.
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  12. #12
    Senior Member collegeskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikephoros View Post
    Actually, baseball's primary PED was HGH as far as I am aware. I don't believe there was even a test for that until very recently.
    Baseball is still not testing for HGH, and until the last couple of years was not testing at all. Still has minor punishment compared to WADA participating sports. I just don't think baseball is a place to look for how to deal with PED.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I know this is a radical concept, but: You should at least have a tad of evidence before firing off accusations.

    I might add that an exceptional performance isn't proof of anything. Lemond was a strong competitor but few people (if any) accuse him of doping. Alternately, there are plenty of workaday guys in the peloton who dope just to hold onto their job as a domestique.
    I'm not accusing anything, and I have no idea about any of them. I'm just asking a question.Sounds like you're the one accusing all those "workaday guys".
    I just find it odd that no one ever questions whether or not Indurain doped, while almost everyone else is accused, or worse, caught.

    I think all(baseball included) cheaters should be erased from the books. No asterisks. Remove their name from ALL the books, like they never existed. In the Tour, yes, award the second place guy the win.....oh wait....that's already been done.

    Check my join date Bellweatherman. Just a lurker.

  14. #14
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambonio View Post
    I'm not accusing anything, and I have no idea about any of them. I'm just asking a question.
    Yes, and your question is "why isn't anyone accusing Indurain of doping?" Your only reason for asking seems to be that he "dominated" the Tour. If that isn't a back-handed accusation....


    Quote Originally Posted by Hambonio
    Sounds like you're the one accusing all those "workaday guys".
    It's not a baseless accusation when it's an observation of established facts. I doubt you'll recognize half the names on a list of cyclists who got popped for PED's. There are also numerous instances of an entire team getting nailed (PDM, Telekom, Festina) or swaths of riders (Operacion Puerto). They're not all winners.

  15. #15
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by collegeskier View Post
    Baseball is still not testing for HGH, and until the last couple of years was not testing at all. Still has minor punishment compared to WADA participating sports. I just don't think baseball is a place to look for how to deal with PED.

    Certainly baseball is not the model sport for looking at how to combat steroid users. However, cycling and endurance sports, in general, is not any better. And one could, equally and IMO, make the argument that cycling is more rife and has a greater tradition of drug usage. It is especially difficult to test for blood doping in cycling. And the proper techniques allows a cheating cyclist to manipulate blood hematocrit levels in ways that are not as easily manipulated with steroid usage.

    Yeah, and about Indurain. He was widely suspected of EPO usage, but nothing came of light. He didn't have nearly the detractors, and the 1st hand witnesses that pointed to his own EPO usage as does Armstrong.
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    Yes, and your question is "why isn't anyone accusing Indurain of doping?" Your only reason for asking seems to be that he "dominated" the Tour. If that isn't a back-handed accusation....



    It's not a baseless accusation when it's an observation of established facts. I doubt you'll recognize half the names on a list of cyclists who got popped for PED's. There are also numerous instances of an entire team getting nailed (PDM, Telekom, Festina) or swaths of riders (Operacion Puerto). They're not all winners.
    It's not a "back handed accusation" because I'm telling you it's not an accusation, just a question. With cycling's background, and recent history, I'm just surprised that this one guy's name is never mentioned with the rest. Believe what you will.

    Why would you doubt me recognizing the names? You know absolutely nothing about me.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambonio View Post
    I'm not accusing anything, and I have no idea about any of them. I'm just asking a question.Sounds like you're the one accusing all those "workaday guys".
    I just find it odd that no one ever questions whether or not Indurain doped, while almost everyone else is accused, or worse, caught.

    I think all(baseball included) cheaters should be erased from the books. No asterisks. Remove their name from ALL the books, like they never existed. In the Tour, yes, award the second place guy the win.....oh wait....that's already been done.

    Check my join date Bellweatherman. Just a lurker.
    The flaw in your argument is how you define a "cheater." Failed test? It is common knowledge that dopers are able to beat test. So do you base it upon accusations? The big problem with that is the accusations usually fly at the guys winning. There are plenty of dopers who are not the best in their sport. Look the list of guys who get caught in the NFL or even in the minor leagues of baseball. So the governing bodies are stuck with failed tests. Even if you strip Lance of his TdF titles, who do you give them to? Jan Ulrich, a guy who got banned for doping? Or maybe Ivan Basso, another guy who got banned for doping? And if we're going off of accusations, well then you could go pretty far down the GC before you came to a rider that "might" be completely clean.

    The problem with the initial tests in MLB was that they collectively bargained not to release the results and that MLB could not and would not take any action against anyone testing positive. So now you want MLB to go back and change the deal? Not going to happen.

    I'm of the sentiment that the doping is systematic throughout the teams. Its a complex, expensive process to do properly (ensure you don't screw up and fail a test). One thing that always struck me about Lance, was that I don't recall riders testing positive while on his teams, but then they left and failed tests. I find it hard to believe that these guys (Hamilton, Landis, etc. supposedly rode with a great rider who, theoretically, didn't dope. Then they leave and decide to start doping. That or they've been doing it all along, and the one big change was the doctors supporting them did.
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

  18. #18
    "Chooch" ciocc_cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    Baseball has had it's share of steroid users, but endurance sports in which you can cheat via manipulating bl hematocrit levels makes cheating in cycling far, far easier than cheating in a sport in which the primary drug use is steroids. With steroids, there are metabolites that can be tested for, and the cheating athlete only has to take masking agents to mask that drug. However, even masking agents can have metabolites that can be tested for. With blood doping, the tests are not good enough to find traces of synthetic EPO use. Thus, a cheating athlete (like Armstrong) can test negative over and over again, while also falsely claiming how he's tested numerous time, but never test positive.
    From your numerous posts you've obviously done your homework and/or have a medical sciences background. However, your apparent dislike of Lance Armstrong and your stated location (Austin) make me wonder if there's a "back-story" to this. If your answer is "none of your business" then I'll certainly respect that, but I am curious.

    For the record, I neither have gilded-framed posters nor many-holed dartboards bearing Lance's image adorning my walls.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocc_cat View Post
    From your numerous posts you've obviously done your homework and/or have a medical sciences background. However, your apparent dislike of Lance Armstrong and your stated location (Austin) make me wonder if there's a "back-story" to this. If your answer is "none of your business" then I'll certainly respect that, but I am curious.

    For the record, I neither have gilded-framed posters nor many-holed dartboards bearing Lance's image adorning my walls.


    Athletes that are well-read in the techniques of blood manipulation, such as high-level endurance athletes, probably have come across readings or experiences or what-have-you, on the ins and outs of blood manipulation. It's all based on hematocrit, which is just a % of RBCs in the blood. And also based on hemoglobin levels, which is just amount of O2 carrying protein in blood. These techniques for manipulating blood values have been extensively documented and published. Manzano, the pro cyclist, that was former Spanish cyclist who spoke out against doping and the techniques used, really was a catalyst for Euro fans in understanding how easy it is to manipulate these tests. Manzano admitted to doping and depicted how a rider could consistently test negative, but be doped to the gills with EPO. So, no Science background required. Serious. It is just that easy.

    Armstrong has support from alot of the lay public in Austin, and some riders too. However, it doesn't mean that there aren't a very large number of elite cyclists and others who do despise the guy. I support anti-Cancer research, but never never never will I support a man that has made millions off of the cancer community the unethical way that he has.

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