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  1. #1
    Member Chapeau!'s Avatar
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    Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

    Whatever the outcome maybe of the forthcoming investigations into the Lance Armstrong saga, it is too bad that LeMond won't be remembered for being a great cyclist, but instead as a great whiner & in the process turned into a pathetic curmudgeon. Hes been bested & ousted from his perch as the best cyclist ever to come out from America - deal with it.

    While Greg throws insult after insult, hoping for it to stick to something, Lance is able to remain calm and let Greg lose his reputation. Lance keeps the higher ground and doesn't in dignify himself with a fight. If they both got into it verbally, nobody would look good.

    With the same amount of proof that has been brought to light against Lance, I charge LeMond of doping as well.


    - Explain, how in the course of a couple of days, mid 1989, he could go from being shelled out the back at even dropped by the sprinters in the mountains of the Giro to finishing on the podium during the final time trial - and then going onto win the Tour and the Worlds. Seeing Greg go up the final climb in the worlds just made a complete mockery of everyone in the race. An impressive piece of big gear climbing. The first half of the season is a complete disaster for Greg with many races not even finished and then "oh, I have an iron deficiency". I almost remember Greg almost quiting pro cycling during the early part of 1989 and his mystery overnight "recovery" from aenemia by vitamin B12 and iron shots from his soigneur, Otto, and coming back into form. Having suffered from aenemia and gone through similar 'shots' I know, like many others, that you don't just recover mystically overnight, or even over a few days... If Greg was given something, knowingly or not, for anemia and the resulting low hematocrit and hgb and it worked really fast - it certainly wasn't "iron shots". I could think of something that was out in the pro peloton that'd fit a rapid increase of performance. When you're dropped on all the mountain stages and do very poorly in the prologue and the first time trial of the Giro but 'mystically' come back for a podium finish in the final time trial then something, somewhere happened. So what did miraculously turn his form around overnight & what did he take?. I claim EPO. When you're talking about quitting the sport you know things are really bad.

    - Gregs' increase in performance from a few shots of vitamins and iron in the hiney does not compute. Insinuate from that what you will... EPO might take weeks but there's always transfusions...

    - And for someone who rides as hard as Greg, I dont buy it for one second he rode it as training, look at his resume pre 89, riding hard in every event.

    - Whatever happened to the LeMond line of bicycles? That's right. It was sold to Trek which later became a sponsor of and exclusive builder for the United States Postal squad. As I recall that team had a fairly good American rider on it and soon after it began its association with U.S. Postal the LeMond line of bicycles practically disappeared off the face of the planet. I wonder if Mr. LeMond finds that annoying? Answer: YES! He sued Trek in 2008 and Trek counter-sued to sever the business relationship with LeMond because nobody wants to buy a bike with that mewling turds name painted on it. Yet another reason for LeMond's hatred of his better and his desire to see druggie Floyd succeed in destroying Armstrong? Get a life Greg, you use to be just irrelevant but now most American cycling fans think your a pathetic desperate loser.

    - In his the book "Bad Blood", he seems to indicate he left the Tour because he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists. Didnt stop him challenging the dopers of Fignon &co of 89 & 90. The drug testing starts advancing & its suddenly he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists of 94. BS.

    - I remember one exchange between Greg and Lance when Lance said something like the following to Greg: "How is it that you have the fastest time trial ever in the Tour de France?" Greg didn't have much of a response. It's a good question though since if everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial.

    - He beat a man (Fignon) who has since admitted to doping in 1989. He had the fastest time trial of that length or greater for many years (including all the years he claimed were full of dopers) DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds. YEAH RIGHT.

    - Were Fignon ('89) and Chiapucci ('90) denied their rightful place as winners of the Tour de France in 1989 and 1990 by an EPO doper? You need to answer these questions Mr. LeMond.

    One big piece of "evidence" he gives for proving he was dope free and others doped was how just one year after he won the Tour de France, suddenly he was finishing in the pack and beaten by others he'd beaten his whole career. But, in 1990 Lemond won with an average speed of 38.621 kph. The next year, the Big Mig won at an avg speed of 38.747 kph. That's a 0.3% difference. 1/3 of a percent.

    - As well, his claim that him finishing 7th the next year, and thus was beaten by dopers, doesn't hold up. If Big Mig was a doper, then wouldn't Lemond's claim also hold true for him? But Big Mig won 5 years in a row and then the next year was 11th, even bigger of a drop off than Lemond.

    LeMond portrays himself as Mr. squeaky clean but like so many other riders, hes dirty as the next rider, make no quarms about it. So look on the bright side -- at least someone is "probing" Armstrong unfortunately it's not you!.

  2. #2
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    Weak case.

    . . . . And the beauty of it is ....You Will NEVER know !!

  3. #3
    elitist jerk daytonian's Avatar
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    . Namenda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapeau! View Post
    - Were Fignon ('89) and Chiapucci ('90) denied their rightful place as winners of the Tour de France in 1989 and 1990 by an EPO doper?
    They were both doping, too. So it doesn't really matter, does it?

  5. #5
    Seor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Chapeau,

    I am presuming that this text comes from a source somewhere. Please attribute it properly, and provide a link. If you're taking a sentence or two from a source, nobody especially cares, but for a full page - we have to insist that this be done.

    Thanks,

    Z
    The search for inner peace continues...

  6. #6
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    What a load of BS. I can't believe I read that crap. All of it, not most, ALL of it was pure opinion. There are so many lies written by this new user that I don't even know where to start. Purely just a piece written to distract from the heat that Armstrong is getting. Armstrong's PR firm focuses on an enemy to distort and sway opinion. Pathetic and disgusting.
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  7. #7
    Senior Member TomT74's Avatar
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    Chapeau is sock puppet for somebody. Absolute garbage.
    Ride Bike.

  8. #8
    Certifiable Bike "Expert"
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    Hmm, attack Lemond when you're in hot water... that worked out really well for Floyd, too...
    I don't even use the offensive term "Fred." -- Sheldon "All Cyclists Are My Friends" Brown (1944-2008)

  9. #9
    Heretic Caretaker's Avatar
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    One big piece of "evidence" he gives for proving he was dope free and others doped was how just one year after he won the Tour de France, suddenly he was finishing in the pack and beaten by others he'd beaten his whole career. But, in 1990 Lemond won with an average speed of 38.621 kph. The next year, the Big Mig won at an avg speed of 38.747 kph. That's a 0.3% difference. 1/3 of a percent.
    You obviously havn't a clue. What has the average speed in the TdF of 1990 to do with the average speed in 1991? Are you not aware that the course in the TdF changes from year to year. Also the weather changes and the tactics of teams change. Even the countries it's held in change.
    History is the future

  10. #10
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    I love how someone will create a sock puppet to say something controversial. They're obviously too cowardly to post it under their own, regular screen name.
    -------

    Some sort of pithy irrelevant one-liner should go here.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapeau! View Post
    Whatever the outcome maybe of the forthcoming investigations into the Lance Armstrong saga, it is too bad that LeMond won't be remembered for being a great cyclist, but instead as a great whiner & in the process turned into a pathetic curmudgeon. He’s been bested & ousted from his perch as the best cyclist ever to come out from America - deal with it.

    While Greg throws insult after insult, hoping for it to stick to something, Lance is able to remain calm and let Greg lose his reputation. Lance keeps the higher ground and doesn't in dignify himself with a fight. If they both got into it verbally, nobody would look good.

    With the same amount of proof that has been brought to light against Lance, I charge LeMond of doping as well.


    - Explain, how in the course of a couple of days, mid 1989, he could go from being shelled out the back at even dropped by the sprinters in the mountains of the Giro to finishing on the podium during the final time trial - and then going onto win the Tour and the Worlds. Seeing Greg go up the final climb in the worlds just made a complete mockery of everyone in the race. An impressive piece of big gear climbing. The first half of the season is a complete disaster for Greg with many races not even finished and then "oh, I have an iron deficiency". I almost remember Greg almost quiting pro cycling during the early part of 1989 and his mystery overnight "recovery" from aenemia by vitamin B12 and iron shots from his soigneur, Otto, and coming back into form. Having suffered from aenemia and gone through similar 'shots' I know, like many others, that you don't just recover mystically overnight, or even over a few days... If Greg was given something, knowingly or not, for anemia and the resulting low hematocrit and hgb and it worked really fast - it certainly wasn't "iron shots". I could think of something that was out in the pro peloton that'd fit a rapid increase of performance. When you're dropped on all the mountain stages and do very poorly in the prologue and the first time trial of the Giro but 'mystically' come back for a podium finish in the final time trial then something, somewhere happened. So what did miraculously turn his form around overnight & what did he take?. I claim EPO. When you're talking about quitting the sport you know things are really bad.

    - Gregs' increase in performance from a few shots of vitamins and iron in the hiney does not compute. Insinuate from that what you will... EPO might take weeks but there's always transfusions...

    - And for someone who rides as hard as Greg, I don’t buy it for one second he rode it as training, look at his resume pre ’89, riding hard in every event.

    - Whatever happened to the LeMond line of bicycles? That's right. It was sold to Trek which later became a sponsor of and exclusive builder for the United States Postal squad. As I recall that team had a fairly good American rider on it and soon after it began its association with U.S. Postal the LeMond line of bicycles practically disappeared off the face of the planet. I wonder if Mr. LeMond finds that annoying? Answer: YES! He sued Trek in 2008 and Trek counter-sued to sever the business relationship with LeMond because nobody wants to buy a bike with that mewling turds name painted on it. Yet another reason for LeMond's hatred of his better and his desire to see druggie Floyd succeed in destroying Armstrong? Get a life Greg, you use to be just irrelevant but now most American cycling fans think your a pathetic desperate loser.

    - In his the book "Bad Blood", he seems to indicate he left the Tour because he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists. Didn’t stop him challenging the dopers of Fignon &co of ’89 & ’90. The drug testing starts advancing & its suddenly “he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists of ’94. BS.

    - I remember one exchange between Greg and Lance when Lance said something like the following to Greg: "How is it that you have the fastest time trial ever in the Tour de France?" Greg didn't have much of a response. It's a good question though since if everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial.

    - He beat a man (Fignon) who has since admitted to doping in 1989. He had the fastest time trial of that length or greater for many years (including all the years he claimed were full of dopers) DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds. YEAH RIGHT.

    - Were Fignon ('89) and Chiapucci ('90) denied their rightful place as winners of the Tour de France in 1989 and 1990 by an EPO doper? You need to answer these questions Mr. LeMond.

    One big piece of "evidence" he gives for proving he was dope free and others doped was how just one year after he won the Tour de France, suddenly he was finishing in the pack and beaten by others he'd beaten his whole career. But, in 1990 Lemond won with an average speed of 38.621 kph. The next year, the Big Mig won at an avg speed of 38.747 kph. That's a 0.3% difference. 1/3 of a percent.

    - As well, his claim that him finishing 7th the next year, and thus was beaten by dopers, doesn't hold up. If Big Mig was a doper, then wouldn't Lemond's claim also hold true for him? But Big Mig won 5 years in a row and then the next year was 11th, even bigger of a drop off than Lemond.

    LeMond portrays himself as Mr. squeaky clean but like so many other riders, hes dirty as the next rider, make no quarms about it. So look on the bright side -- at least someone is "probing" Armstrong – unfortunately it's not you!.
    Although you make 1 good point it is not enough to be fully substantiated. Considering that measurements showed Lemond as having probably more genetic gifts than Armstrong it is quite possible that the 89 Giro he went into it unfit but improved near the end of the race.

    Unfortunately, the general feeling of your article is that of a rant to defend your idol. I understand. I have been there. But since we can't really prove anything from 1 incident we have to look at patterns of probabilities. This is were Lance really fails the test. There are just too many incidents which add up to 1 large probability.

    Besides, the current investigation is on Armstrong and the current cycling generation. You may have a point about Lemond but you continually seem to be diverting responsibility away from Armstrong. Such tactics are almost always the course of the guilty. Try to make yourself or your idol seem less guilty by putting more blame on others.
    Last edited by Hezz; 08-12-10 at 05:20 PM.

  12. #12
    Member Chapeau!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    What a load of BS. I can't believe I read that crap. All of it, not most, ALL of it was pure opinion. There are so many lies written by this new user that I don't even know where to start. Purely just a piece written to distract from the heat that Armstrong is getting. Armstrong's PR firm focuses on an enemy to distort and sway opinion. Pathetic and disgusting.
    Truth hurt?.

    In denial?.

  13. #13
    Member Chapeau!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hezz View Post
    But since we can't really prove anything from 1 incident we have to look at patterns of probabilities. This is were Lance really fails the test. There are just too many incidents which add up to 1 large probability.
    Speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapeau! View Post
    Speculation.
    So was your entire rant.
    -------

    Some sort of pithy irrelevant one-liner should go here.

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    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Lemond was well known for starting the season out of shape and overweight. So notorious for it taht in some circles he was nicknamed 'Fat Greggy'.

    It seems the unknown writer who wrote the piece was unaware of this, or intentionally ignoring it, either way it leads me to discount anything he or the sockpuppet plagerizing him says.

  16. #16
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Lamb Chop,

    If we want to talk about disturbing patterns Armstrong: DNF, DNF, 36th, DNF, 7 wins

    Lemond (and most other winners in the last 50 years): 3rd (or some form of top 10 finish), 2nd, 3 wins

    Lets hear that tale about Lances body changing, bla bla bla... I want to make sure I understand the latest LA talking points.

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    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Just to add a few points ragarding Lemond's final stage TT. It was short, downhill and with a tailwind. All lead to high speeds. For several years it has NOT been the fastest not prologue TT. Id have to check but it may never have been the fastest counting the prologue. It was also a rarity, a TT where the 2 top riders were both willing to take any risk. Normally there is at least some caution in the corners and fear of blowing up. Not that race.

  18. #18
    Member Chapeau!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Just to add a few points ragarding Lemond's final stage TT. It was short, downhill and with a tailwind. All lead to high speeds.
    He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. YEAH RIGHT. Everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial. LeMond was charged or take a walk.
    Last edited by Chapeau!; 08-12-10 at 06:16 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Lemond was well known for starting the season out of shape and overweight. So notorious for it taht in some circles he was nicknamed 'Fat Greggy'.

    It seems the unknown writer who wrote the piece was unaware of this, or intentionally ignoring it, either way it leads me to discount anything he or the sockpuppet plagerizing him says.
    Yes, although this approach would seem crazy by today's standards. It was quite common among some of the riders in past generations. Especially before the advent of EPO. Clean riders could still compete in multi-day events since stimulants were mostly used only for single day events and criteriums. And steroids were mostly used for recovery and pain relief. A clean guy could still stay in the mix he just hurt more and suffered more than the PED users.

  20. #20
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Have you looked at Larry's setup or position in that time trial? Have you ridden an older TT bike? (flex isn't an issue) Rocking? Your basing your case on rocking?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapeau! View Post
    He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. YEAH RIGHT. Everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial. LeMond was charged or take a walk.
    If Lemond was charged would it make Armstrong less guilty? I support your contention that Lemond is from another planet genetically. Now everyone in Europe may have been doping at the time but the Americans? It may have taken them a little time to get into the loop so to speak and some historical evidence supports this. Most likely the American doping programs were very unsophisticated or non existent at that time. Otherwise Armstrong would have been tearing up Europe pre-cancer. Because he seemed to have the potential to do it. But, he needed an expert in Dr. Ferrari to teach him how to dope and train with PED's.

  22. #22
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Dont forget the rocking. Lemond rocked!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
    Dont forget the rocking. Lemond rocked!
    Remember also that Lemond in 89 was essentially the first in the TdF peloton to use aero bars.....what do modern day analyses say that's worth time wise in a TT of that distance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapeau! View Post
    He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. YEAH RIGHT. Everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial. LeMond was charged or take a walk.
    You do realize that Fignon was also using a "flexier bike than today"?

  25. #25
    snob rogwilco's Avatar
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    Before EPO all doping was amateur hour imo and I'm not sure if EPO was alread ubiquitous in cycling in 1990; blood doping was known already at the time but I also doubt if it was used much outside really professional doping programs like in East-Germany and stuff like that - it takes quite a bit of expertise and equipment to do it right and manage the risks.

    Of course the whole rant loses any shred of credibility once you claim Fignon and Chiapucci were clean and would have been the rightful winners.

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