Oostal

interesting reading:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/05/sp...berto_contador

Malloric

If true, that is pretty much nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned me. That explains why there wasn't much information released on the plasticizer. New test, not yet validated. Assuming the minimum level that signifies doping is set anywhere near high enough to avoid false positives it's a see you later. Eight times the minimum level of plasticizer that signifies doping, plus traces of clen? Good bye. Hopefully they use this test on other riders and publish the results even if they can't sanction them due to a technicality.

Cateye

Prove it.......your long on accusations and short on proof.

You’re accusing LA of blood doping vs. dehydration and have no evidence other than the fact that you hate LA. Hearsay is not proof.

Saline isn’t the fluid of choice for acute dehydration. Lactated Ringers is a better choice for acute dehydration. Normal Saline is good for maintenance…or to prevent dehydration in the first place….. but not so much as a quick recovery as you’re accusing. With saline you would get the same benefit as drinking a bunch of water and not having to jam a hole in your vein so it would be counterproductive risking blowing the vein and having in a bruise for the whole world to see and ask questions. So as of right now unless you can provide proof you’re just spewing BS. Get over it..........could of, should of, would of.......quit crying about history.

Cateye

Eight times the over the max is not a good thing. I think he is toast.

Whiteknight

I think that the question of the plasticizer test results centers on detecting it at very low levels. Twenty years ago we commonly looked at PVC compounds to identify what plasticizers had been used and in what amounts. But not in the minute amounts involved here.

But things get complicating in trying to identify where the traces of plasticizer came from. Blood bag PVC compounds usually use more than one type of plasticizer. The report cites only one. DEHP. Most blood bag compounds would include some DOP.

These plasticizers are also found in most cling wrap films. They don't not migrate out of the PVC film into lean meat. Cheese will cause some to migrate from the film into the cheese. I suspect that migration out of the film would also happen if fat on the surface of the meat is in contact with the film.

VT Biker

If you read the article, it seems to indicate that there is no way one could possibly ingest this much plasticizer through ingestion of food or even intake of liquids. When it comes to doping in cycling, I adhere to the Occam's Razor principle "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one".

rogwilco

God, can you imagine the carnage if that test works and is used retroactvely? Any guesses what percentage of Tour de France riders gets DQ'd?

Malloric

Yes, but I have to think they set the level that signifies doping with that sort of thing in mind. I don't know anything about this really, so more knowledgeable input than mine is much appreciated, but eight times the level that signifies doping? Even if the plasticizer testing is used only as a flag, they probably set the threshold pretty high. I mean, I know nothing about this, but most things tend to occur in a somewhat standard distribution. Even if they set the threshold low (say the 75 percentile of how much is normally found in the body) the chances of having eight times as much without doping would be low. Not knowing anything about the test in specific or plasticizers in general it seems like that's a safe assumption.

merlinextraligh

The rules don't allow it to be used retroactively. Once you test negative on the A sample, the B sample is thrown out.

The exception is that the B sample can be kept and tested in the future solely for research purposes on an anonymous basis. (Hence the reason Armstrong's B samples from 1999, later tested positive for EPO could not be used to sanction Armstrong, and never should have been made public.)

So at most, you might find out on some aggregate basis, how many blood doped, but you shouldn't find out names, and no one will be DQ'd retroactively.

merlinextraligh

I can't prove Armstrong used IV solutions to manage his hematacrit levels, and don't really care to wade into that pissing match.

However, it's absolutely a known fact that in the period where the 50% rule was the only check on EPO use many professional cyclists used IV injections to manage their hematacrit levels.

Why do you think they traveled with their own centrifuges?

So its rather ignorant to say that professional cyclists wouldn't use IV's.

Whiteknight

VT Biker,

I didn't miss the point on 8 times as much as "normal". I had to laugh when I saw it. Does the guy have a second job running an extruder in a plant that processes PVC compounds? Some of those plasticizers mimic estrogen in the human body.

There are alternatives to the use of PVC in blood bags. I can see the hunt going on now for non-PVC blood bags. Panic in the peleton?

rogwilco

Yeah, of course they can't do it even if they could (just like they don't disqualify half the peloton on difficult mountain stages for being outside the time limit). I just meant hypothetically.

Jed19

Hey, the tainted meat was wrapped in a bag heavy with plasticizers.

do-well

Many baseball players believed the same thing. And then the names started leaking as a result of anonymous, aggregate testing.

Homebrew01

That's funny .... but he messed up by not diluting enough so that only water remained !

All the teams need to fire their regular doctors and hire homeopathic doctors instead. Then there's no risk of a positive becuase the drugs don't actually contain anything.

Cat4Lifer

No one can...
all that is posted are beliefs...
beliefs are opinions formed in the absence of definitive proof.
Arguing over LA/doping/Tour victories has turned into a sort of "Does God exist" argument
Some saying definitively saying yes others no and yet others saying they'll wait for the proof.

rogwilco

Proof like a positive test of EPO or cortisone?

FR4NCH1SE

Lets think logically and lets take in what Alberto stated in his press conference about the allegations. First of he says that he says he ate a steak from Spain in France, now lets say this is true, why in the world would the person that went to get this "beef" get beef that was fed Clenbutoral, that person should know that it could have been found in his blood samples and also it has already been known that cows have been given Clenbutoral and have led to mass sickness in Spain. I don't know about you but why would this person that picked up the beef in Spain want to feed his star (Contador) beef that could make him sick? Logically speaking If I were Contador "knowing" the beef came from Spain, I would have refused to eat it. I am sorry but I do not buy this. What makes logical sense is he knew there has been stories of Clenbutoral fed cows making people sick in Spain, and he thought this would give him the benefit of the doubt.

Know we know that traces of 8x the legal limit of Plasticizer was found in his samples too... Know what is the defense to that? When is his press conference to defend this allegation?

I always thought Contador was a cheater, know it just feels good that it has been confirmed. If anything this should show how great Lance Armstrong is and was, Last year He could have won the Tour if it wasn't for his cheater teammate at the age of 38, get the hell out of here.

Cateye

That is not what I said. You missed the point.

Cateye

Yep while he was racing.....I know where your going with cortisone.

Cateye

+1 and it is stupid to try. Its history.

Fat Boy

I was on the fence about AC. Not that it's surprise me a hell of a lot, but there wasn't much evidence to say that he did dope until recently. LA has had a bunch of circumstantial evidence for a long time. I think the people that think he has always been clean are a bit optimistic. Having said this, everyone he was racing against was doped as well. I think his wins were legitimate, just not drug free. It might sound like a paradox, but in the end, I think he played the game better than his contemporaries. Listen to Kohl, the game is still very much the same.

I do think that for the last 2 years we have seen a Lance that is pretty much legit. He just had too much to gamble and testing positive now would destroy his life. Floyd said something pretty interesting in one of his interviews, to paraphrase him, "One thing that shouldn't be lost in all of this. Lance Armstrong is one bad-assed bicycle racer." I think that is something that gets lost on all these top-notch guys.

Cat4Lifer

Proof: as in evidence with veracity devoid of reasonable reproach.

tridavis

Now they will just all go back to the glass bottles that were used in transfusions dating back to as late as the 60s & 70s.

Fat Boy

While the UCI and WADA pronounce everyone as clean as a virgin's honeypot.