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Old 05-23-11, 05:02 AM   #26
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I bet Lance wishes he had raced for Goldman Sachs. Their employees never get charged with anything.
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Old 05-23-11, 06:00 AM   #27
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Prosecuting an a--hole of epic proportions like Armstrong is ok by me. What he has done to defraud the cancer community is despicable. Millions stolen from the government, from Nike, etc. Needs to b recovered when they lock him up in prison for a long, long time. I want him to come out of prison with nothing.
I don't think u can say he "defrauded" the cancer community. He has raised millions for them which no matter what, I think all but you will say is good....his future ability to raise funds will be diminished.

I'm just tired whether baseball or cycling the government has to stick their nose in so the egomaniacs in office can get their name in lights. They need to focus on the issues hurting this country and quit wasting or time and dollars...I'd rather bring them up for fraud in wasting our dollars and see a round of hearings on that.

Let the sports organizations clean-up them self's.

And it sounds like u have a personal issue with LA.
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Old 05-23-11, 07:00 AM   #28
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Former team mates with (or hope to have) book deals or publicity have come out of the wood work, boy that has never happened before. Now, where's the proof!
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Old 05-23-11, 07:19 AM   #29
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Prosecuting an a--hole of epic proportions like Armstrong is ok by me. What he has done to defraud the cancer community is despicable. Millions stolen from the government, from Nike, etc. Needs to b recovered when they lock him up in prison for a long, long time. I want him to come out of prison with nothing.
What about everybody else that used drugs too during that time. What about people who smoke dope? Should they be locked up forever and get out with nothing? Do you smoke dope....or is this just a bellweatherman hates Lance thing? How did he steal millions from Nike? Did Tiger steal millions from Nike?

If Lance broke the law the feds will get him but to say that he stole money from a private company like Nike who sponsored him in a business deal is silly. Nike took made an investment and I am sure it paid them big money in the long run and would do it again given the chance. This case is 10 years old and Nike could care less because they made money which is their bottom line.
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Old 05-23-11, 07:38 AM   #30
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I don't think u can say he "defrauded" the cancer community. He has raised millions for them which no matter what, I think all but you will say is good....his future ability to raise funds will be diminished.

I'm just tired whether baseball or cycling the government has to stick their nose in so the egomaniacs in office can get their name in lights. They need to focus on the issues hurting this country and quit wasting or time and dollars...I'd rather bring them up for fraud in wasting our dollars and see a round of hearings on that.

Let the sports organizations clean-up them self's.

And it sounds like u have a personal issue with LA.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This madness will never end.
Guess the French are having a ball over this. They hate all of us Americans and especially LA. Maybe they will ban all Americans from the TDF.
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Old 05-23-11, 09:01 AM   #31
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What Armstrong has done with his lies and assertions that he was clean is despicable to all the little cancer kids out there that believed in him. He gets no pass from me. Take his money, and give it to a real cause. Fighting cancer, not defrauding cancer victims into his world of lies, doping, cheating. Cheaters never win. Winners never cheat. Armstrong is not a winner, and certainly no champion.
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Old 05-23-11, 10:42 AM   #32
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What Armstrong has done with his lies and assertions that he was clean is despicable to all the little cancer kids out there that believed in him. He gets no pass from me. Take his money, and give it to a real cause. Fighting cancer, not defrauding cancer victims into his world of lies, doping, cheating. Cheaters never win. Winners never cheat. Armstrong is not a winner, and certainly no champion.
You have a personal issue with LA, obviously. I see you're from Austin. What happened, he drop you on a local ride or didn't sign your T shirt?? Odds are, that given all the bad, he's given more back to cancer victims with feelings of hope, and with millions donated, than you ever will in your lifetime. Like all things in life, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Whether or not we find out is another issue altogether.
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Old 05-23-11, 10:59 AM   #33
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And it sounds like u have a personal issue with LA.
Sounds like you buy his counter-tactics, of accusing anyone who questions anything he ever did of having a personal axe to grind.

How many eye witnesses do you need to convict? Usually just one... and there are plenty. The federal government can't just "let it go" if there was federal money used to support a team that doped in direct violation of a contract. Unless the V.P. is the ex-CEO of the company, of course. But this isn't Halliburton, so Lance is most likely going down big time.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:01 PM   #34
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Hmmm... does this mean that Ulle may be potentially inheriting 3 TDF wins?
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Old 05-23-11, 06:20 PM   #35
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You have a personal issue with LA, obviously. I see you're from Austin. What happened, he drop you on a local ride or didn't sign your T shirt?? Odds are, that given all the bad, he's given more back to cancer victims with feelings of hope, and with millions donated, than you ever will in your lifetime. Like all things in life, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Whether or not we find out is another issue altogether.

Armstrong has his supporters in Austin, but even they are turning against him. There are lots of Austinites that have turned the corner on him.

Raising money for cancer and lieing, cheating, smearing other riders is not honorable. You may as well praise the mafia for their charitable work taking a portion of their crime money and giving it to good causes. You will never understand honor, respect, dignity, and the good of sport so long as you choose to ignore the years of deceit, cheating, fraud,and corruption. Armstrong has done far more harm long-term in sport tha any publicized good that he has done. That so called good is built on a house of lies and fraud.
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Old 05-23-11, 07:11 PM   #36
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Raising money for cancer and lieing, cheating, smearing other riders is not honorable. You may as well praise the mafia for their charitable work...
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Old 05-23-11, 07:35 PM   #37
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You know I think the US Gorenment should spend millions investigating the 2002 Super bowl game.
The government didn't spend millions sponsoring a team in that game.
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Old 05-24-11, 07:10 AM   #38
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The government didn't spend millions sponsoring a team in that game.
They gave them an anti-trust exemption instead. And I think I would not have to look to hard to find government money in the NFL. (Stadiums, military sponsorship, and oh yeah USPS sponsors a ton of other sports).
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Old 05-24-11, 07:13 AM   #39
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You may as well praise the mafia for their charitable work taking a portion of their crime money and giving it to good causes.
I often praise the mafia but not for their charitable giving but for the reduced crime the cities experience. You don't f with the mafia, or they f with you. Keeps everyone nice and safe, assuming business pay their protection money.
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Old 05-25-11, 08:37 AM   #40
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Prosecuting an a--hole of epic proportions like Armstrong is ok by me. What he has done to defraud the cancer community is despicable. Millions stolen from the government, from Nike, etc. Needs to b recovered when they lock him up in prison for a long, long time. I want him to come out of prison with nothing.
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What Armstrong has done with his lies and assertions that he was clean is despicable to all the little cancer kids out there that believed in him. He gets no pass from me. Take his money, and give it to a real cause. Fighting cancer, not defrauding cancer victims into his world of lies, doping, cheating. Cheaters never win. Winners never cheat. Armstrong is not a winner, and certainly no champion.
Your bias and vitriol make your posts virtually unreadable. Your banter about Armstrong doping and cheating the government has an actual argument but claiming he defrauded cancer patients is beyond absurd and just screams of either bitterness or paranoia.

By the accepted definition of what fraud is, can you provide something, anything remotely factual that points to Armstrong essentially stealing money from his cancer foundation? You really can't, can you? This is just some more of the Bellweatherman broken record that has been existing on this site for nearly five years now. Actual facts and evidence that he defrauded cancer patients, the ball is in your court, GO!

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How many eye witnesses do you need to convict? Usually just one... and there are plenty. The federal government can't just "let it go" if there was federal money used to support a team that doped in direct violation of a contract. Unless the V.P. is the ex-CEO of the company, of course. But this isn't Halliburton, so Lance is most likely going down big time.
In theory you are right but then you run in to the little thingy of actually corroborating the testimony of those eyewitnesses. Currently we really don't know exactly what Hincapie told the grand jury so we'll leave him out of this. Let's focus on Frankie, Floyd and Tyler. All three have already stated in sworn testimony that they never saw Armstrong dope. Now that they get in front of Novitky's money wasting circus they change their tune. In addition you still have this little matter of physically proving he doped. I'm not saying he didn't, but you just can't go on the word of people that have already been proven to be liars and quite honestly frauds. Was it Tyler or Floyd (perhaps both) that had funds that fans donated to in order to help in their defense that they didn't dope.....a charge that they passionately denied. (Bellweatherman, that's fraud). Even if Armstrong gets nailed his attorneys have more than enough to get any conviction or judgement overturned.

Remember that we have several cases of people convicted by eyewitness testimony that turned out to be innocent. Again I am not saying he didn't dope but you need something more substantial then eyewitnesses with dodgy pasts to convict or uphold a conviction.

The thing about all this is that if they truly wanted to prove a conspiracy to defraud the government they don't actually have to prove he doped yet the overwhelming majority of the leaked information is about his doping. Sounds more like a smear campaign to me. Let's look at this more objectively, when Novitzky went after MLB, Bonds for example he spent over $50 million of the tax payers dollars proving nothing more than people lie. The fact is that he never did prove Bonds doped nor did it changed the fact that his investigation did nothing to curtail the use of dope in sports.


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Armstrong has his supporters in Austin, but even they are turning against him. There are lots of Austinites that have turned the corner on him.

Raising money for cancer and lieing, cheating, smearing other riders is not honorable. You may as well praise the mafia for their charitable work taking a portion of their crime money and giving it to good causes. You will never understand honor, respect, dignity, and the good of sport so long as you choose to ignore the years of deceit, cheating, fraud,and corruption. Armstrong has done far more harm long-term in sport tha any publicized good that he has done. That so called good is built on a house of lies and fraud.
I live in Austin as well and I think you are expanding the reality a bit. Now how about lining out the evidence as to how he defrauded his cancer foundation. If you can't support your allegations with actual facts you should consider shutting up and posting in other topics since you are incapable of actually being remotely objective. Of course you only post in the threads that rip Armstrong so I guess you have no place to go.
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Old 05-25-11, 09:10 AM   #41
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By the accepted definition of what fraud is, can you provide something, anything remotely factual that points to Armstrong essentially stealing money from his cancer foundation? You really can't, can you? This is just some more of the Bellweatherman broken record that has been existing on this site for nearly five years now. Actual facts and evidence that he defrauded cancer patients, the ball is in your court, GO!
As someone who has had cancer, it's my point of view that it's not so much the money has taken, but using cancer and the Livestrong organization to build, add, or further his level of credibility. In short, hiding behind it. "Lance has done so much for cancer, how can we possibly think he would dope?"

I look forward to the outcome with the Federal Government. If he is found guilty beyond any doubt, then his actions would certainly support sociopathic behavior.
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Old 05-25-11, 09:37 AM   #42
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I love it when the sock puppets come out to play.
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Old 05-25-11, 09:38 AM   #43
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As someone who has had cancer, it's my point of view that it's not so much the money has taken, but using cancer and the Livestrong organization to build, add, or further his level of credibility. In short, hiding behind it. "Lance has done so much for cancer, how can we possibly think he would dope?"

I look forward to the outcome with the Federal Government. If he is found guilty beyond any doubt, then his actions would certainly support sociopathic behavior.
First of all god speed with regards to your cancer. Secondly I personally don't believe the two are connected. I have seen nothing outwardly that would indicate that he uses Livestrong for anything other than it's intent. If he has please show me and I'll gladly retract my comment. Sociopathic may be a bit strong but narcissism might be closer. Really what it comes down to is that I can't fathom a survivor being so ****ed up in the head that they would use cancer for personal gain. Armstrong is definitely a character and even an ass at times but anybody that gets that sick doesn't use cancer. As for the investigation, whatever they find will it be worth the $50 million plus being spent and will it finally put a stop to doping in cycling and sport? War on drugs simply don't work.

Thanks for the balanced and rational response.
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Old 05-25-11, 09:40 AM   #44
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Actually not a sock puppet, my old account did go missing while I was overseas. Thanks for the great post though.
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Old 05-25-11, 09:44 AM   #45
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Most of the riders are clean today.
yeah, they just all eat tainted meat
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Old 05-25-11, 11:52 AM   #46
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First of all god speed with regards to your cancer. Secondly I personally don't believe the two are connected. I have seen nothing outwardly that would indicate that he uses Livestrong for anything other than it's intent. If he has please show me and I'll gladly retract my comment. Sociopathic may be a bit strong but narcissism might be closer. Really what it comes down to is that I can't fathom a survivor being so ****ed up in the head that they would use cancer for personal gain. Armstrong is definitely a character and even an ass at times but anybody that gets that sick doesn't use cancer. As for the investigation, whatever they find will it be worth the $50 million plus being spent and will it finally put a stop to doping in cycling and sport? War on drugs simply don't work.

Thanks for the balanced and rational response.
No worries, I don't see myself as a victim to cancer.

I'll bookmark this thread but I'm ready to bet my house, car, and even my bike that Lance is a sociopath. They are everywhere.
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Old 05-25-11, 12:29 PM   #47
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Sounds like you buy his counter-tactics, of accusing anyone who questions anything he ever did of having a personal axe to grind.

How many eye witnesses do you need to convict? Usually just one... and there are plenty. The federal government can't just "let it go" if there was federal money used to support a team that doped in direct violation of a contract. Unless the V.P. is the ex-CEO of the company, of course. But this isn't Halliburton, so Lance is most likely going down big time.
Actually I would prefer scientific proof over the recall of witnesses. This is the reason that DNA is freeing wrongly accused where people for some reason made the wrong or false accusation. You seem to advocate the opposite utilize fa liable human memory vs scientific testing. I do say that the over 500 test and not once tested positive in 20 years is a big statement to overcome. I mean how did he fool over 500 tests? I could believe 10 or 20 tests he was able to somehow fool maybe....but 500????? Its like saying we take the witness account who will get off scot free over the 500 DNA test conducted by multiple agencies that say it was imposable for him to have committed the crime.

My mind may work different but I say show me how he beat over 500 drug tests that obviously others did not....
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Old 05-25-11, 12:46 PM   #48
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Actually I would prefer scientific proof over the recall of witnesses. This is the reason that DNA is freeing wrongly accused where people for some reason made the wrong or false accusation. You seem to advocate the opposite utilize fa liable human memory vs scientific testing. I do say that the over 500 test and not once tested positive in 20 years is a big statement to overcome. I mean how did he fool over 500 tests? I could believe 10 or 20 tests he was able to somehow fool maybe....but 500????? Its like saying we take the witness account who will get off scot free over the 500 DNA test conducted by multiple agencies that say it was imposable for him to have committed the crime.

My mind may work different but I say show me how he beat over 500 drug tests that obviously others did not....
A) show proof of the claimed number of tests taken
B) what about his cortisone test issue back in 1999 I believe it was where they produced a back dated prescription for some cream for saddle sores yet the dosage needed to pop up on the test was pretty much impossible using that cream
C) there is also the issue of the WADA/UCI EPO new testing protocol on old samples which allegedly busted Lance among others
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Old 05-25-11, 01:52 PM   #49
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My mind may work different but I say show me how he beat over 500 drug tests that obviously others did not....
How many times have you exceeded the speed limit without being caught? The absence of scientific evidence does not, in and of itself, prove anything, especially when it isn't really expected to be there. The dope doctors have always been ahead of the testing protocols. It is the slip-ups (see Alberto Contador, caught only because he slipped up in choosing when to store blood), and the use by riders with less sophisticated support (like a guy hospitalized trying to transfuse himself), that are caught.

Not to mention what has been pointed out; that lab tests have found drugs in his samples.
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Old 05-25-11, 02:13 PM   #50
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Most of the riders are clean today.
You say this based on what, exactly?
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