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  1. #51
    Rides with Scissors tmass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedex View Post
    A) show proof of the claimed number of tests taken Don't know for sure but would like to see documentation of the number. so I agree
    B) what about his cortisone test issue back in 1999 I believe it was where they produced a back dated prescription for some cream for saddle sores yet the dosage needed to pop up on the test was pretty much impossible using that cream
    Didn't read enough about that but would leave it to the Doctors at the time who made the decision that it was reasonable....who was the Phd that said it was impossible? .
    C) there is also the issue of the WADA/UCI EPO new testing protocol on old samples which allegedly busted Lance among others
    My understanding is that it is illegal for them to test without consent. I do not know if i would trust and old sample that has been sitting around for years w/ some people that would love to see you fall. I thought LA did not give consent.

    All I'm saying is show some concrete proof and testimony from people who have testified differently in the past does not impress me a proof. If they could find something that documents he did use the drugs or failed a test then I think that will stick...now its just he said she said.
    TMass

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  2. #52
    Rides with Scissors tmass's Avatar
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    Actually there is not a "absence of scientific evidence" there is scientific evidence that there was not drugs in his system at the time of competition.. To use your speed analogy it would be like not only did i not get "caught" but the 500 times that they radar-ed me i was within the limit. So maybe I have sped or maybe I am conscious about obeying the law, but if a witness wants to take me to court over speeding at the same place i was radar-ed by the police....who you going to believe????
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  3. #53
    Senior Member collegeskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmass View Post
    Actually there is not a "absence of scientific evidence" there is scientific evidence that there was not drugs in his system at the time of competition.. To use your speed analogy it would be like not only did i not get "caught" but the 500 times that they radar-ed me i was within the limit. So maybe I have sped or maybe I am conscious about obeying the law, but if a witness wants to take me to court over speeding at the same place i was radar-ed by the police....who you going to believe????
    To correct that the radar did not work for seeing what speed you were going during a bunch of those times and still cannot pick up when you speeding in certain ways.

  4. #54
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    The evidence isn't that there were no drugs in his system, the evidence is that there were no drugs detected in his system, when it is known that the tests weren't able to detect everything. And I'm not asking about the times you were not speeding, I'm asking about the times you were speeding, but didn't get a ticket, either because there was no radar trained on you, the radar didn't work, or because the officer decided not to chase you down because you were only 5 miles over the limit.

    The UCI has bent over backwards protecting Armstrong, yet people try to say they conspired with testing labs to spike stored samples. If you read about the 7 samples of his that tested positive, all in varying amounts consistent with what would be done during the tour, you would see just how preposterous the contaminated samples conspiracy theory is.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  5. #55
    Rides with Scissors tmass's Avatar
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    You are presenting your argument well but you are assuming that I was speeding at some point but just not caught....yet you have no evidence that i ever did, just evidence that I did not. You cannot just "well you had to be at one time speeding" you could be wrong and maybe I am a very law abiding citizen. Innocent until "proven" guilty, maybe I do not read up enough but I have never heard of any of his tests that were tested positive but would be interested in reading some facts about that. You are correct tests are only good as the current technology and knowledge but its beginning to sound like a witch hunt of "guilty" lets just burn him at the stakes because everyone says he's guilty and just the test were not good enough to catch him. I say the prosecution must prove his guilt...he does not have to prove his innocence. I do not know which it is but right now all I've seen is a couple of guys that need a deal from the law pointing at him.
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  6. #56
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    What I did was to ask how many times you have sped without being caught, because so many of us do speed, and we are caught such a small percentage of the time. Just substitute me for you in the example, and know that I am caught far less than 1% of the time I speed. I believe doping is similar, in that it is routinely done and rarely caught. I certainly don't believe that everyone guilty of a crime is convicted, nor do I believe everyone convicted of a crime is guilty. I have too much experience with our legal system to swallow that. To think that sports associations are more effective than our legal system, catching everyone who cheated, is an even bigger stretch. So, for me, anyway, his not being caught bears very little weight, and I'll come to my own conclusions, based on the information available, rather than rely on our legal system to make them for me.

    The prosecution certainly must prove his guilt to convict him, and I believe they will do so, based on eyewitness testimony. Far from being a witch hunt, I feel he has been protected, by the UCI and the press, because his success brought those groups money. Now that he has retired, and more eyewitnesses have come forward, there may be a bit of a 'get Lance' bandwagon, but it took a long time to get that wagon rolling.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #57
    Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins tagaproject6's Avatar
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    What people know and what they can prove are totally different things.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member bellweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmass View Post
    My understanding is that it is illegal for them to test without consent. I do not know if i would trust and old sample that has been sitting around for years w/ some people that would love to see you fall. I thought LA did not give consent.

    All I'm saying is show some concrete proof and testimony from people who have testified differently in the past does not impress me a proof. If they could find something that documents he did use the drugs or failed a test then I think that will stick...now its just he said she said.

    Out of competition tests are done without notice. Your assumption is not correct. Further, every bit of evidence and numerous eye-witness testimony points to Armstrong 's extensive use of EPO. Did Ulrich test positive? What about Basso? Do you even follow cycling beyond Lance Armstrong? Seriously. Do you?
    Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.

    Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.

    01101010101010001010

  9. #59
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    What I did was to ask how many times you have sped without being caught, because so many of us do speed, and we are caught such a small percentage of the time. Just substitute me for you in the example, and know that I am caught far less than 1% of the time I speed. I believe doping is similar, in that it is routinely done and rarely caught. I certainly don't believe that everyone guilty of a crime is convicted, nor do I believe everyone convicted of a crime is guilty. I have too much experience with our legal system to swallow that. To think that sports associations are more effective than our legal system, catching everyone who cheated, is an even bigger stretch. So, for me, anyway, his not being caught bears very little weight, and I'll come to my own conclusions, based on the information available, rather than rely on our legal system to make them for me.

    The prosecution certainly must prove his guilt to convict him, and I believe they will do so, based on eyewitness testimony. Far from being a witch hunt, I feel he has been protected, by the UCI and the press, because his success brought those groups money. Now that he has retired, and more eyewitnesses have come forward, there may be a bit of a 'get Lance' bandwagon, but it took a long time to get that wagon rolling.
    I disagree. Riders or others that dope is not analogus to you or I not getting caught speeding. It is closer to guys who have radar detectors in their cars, CB radios where they constantly talk to others seeking to avoid getting caught and know about an online site that discusses how to avoid being caught (and where they exchange information of just where police wait to catch speeders.

    As I see it the question here is just what kind of Cop is the UCI. Are they slick guys setting up traps to catch every speeder who innocently goes 1 MPH over the limit or they just trying hard only when others scream about cars flying down their streets.

  10. #60
    Rides with Scissors tmass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
    Out of competition tests are done without notice. Your assumption is not correct. Further, every bit of evidence and numerous eye-witness testimony points to Armstrong 's extensive use of EPO. Did Ulrich test positive? What about Basso? Do you even follow cycling beyond Lance Armstrong? Seriously. Do you?
    I do know that testing can be done at random, and that is not what I was talking about... but from the Associated Press the following quote from the UCI:

    The UCI keeps the samples after the race for research purposes with the riders' consent and on the condition that their identity be kept secret. Only the UCI has the codes allowing the owner of each sample to be identified.

    My point is once a blood sample is pulled and tested it cannot be used/tested again without the riders consent as the UCi stated. Therefore only LA can give consent to retest his samples......otherwise all they have for a case is hearsay which i believe will be hard to win any conviction.

    I am not the most knowledgeable about pro bike racing, and admit it, just enjoy watching the competition when I can...I have other things in my life; but I did know this about the UCI rules.
    TMass

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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmass View Post
    I do know that testing can be done at random, and that is not what I was talking about... but from the Associated Press the following quote from the UCI:

    The UCI keeps the samples after the race for research purposes with the riders' consent and on the condition that their identity be kept secret. Only the UCI has the codes allowing the owner of each sample to be identified.

    My point is once a blood sample is pulled and tested it cannot be used/tested again without the riders consent as the UCi stated. Therefore only LA can give consent to retest his samples......otherwise all they have for a case is hearsay which i believe will be hard to win any conviction.

    I am not the most knowledgeable about pro bike racing, and admit it, just enjoy watching the competition when I can...I have other things in my life; but I did know this about the UCI rules.
    Years ago when the UCI/WADA was setting up a test for EPO which did not exist until after EPO was already in use the UCI asked for permission from many riders to test old urine samples using the new test, Lance Armstrong was among those that had samples showing EPO use. Furthermore several riders in the past including Tyler Hamilton have been warned about positive tests yet still refused to clean up their acts and got busted for it. When they started testing for EPO they didn't just drop the hammer on people, they were forewarned about suspicious tests.

    Then there is also the UCI itself which over the years has amply proven itself to be quite corrupt in own right and has actually not really done much to really get rid of the doping problem. It is no coincidence that all the old guard dopers are now director sportiffs and kept their jobs. Guys like Reis, Bruyneel, etc etc....should have been banned from racing a long time ago. You get caught with a doping rider and it should be game over.

  12. #62
    Senior Member colombo357's Avatar
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    Lance Armstrong isn't a doper. All he took was hard work and sacrifice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "I just googled triple crank set and i see what your saying. this bike has 9 of those "cranksets".
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