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Old 06-17-11, 05:11 AM   #226
bellweatherman
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Yeah Vaughters holds a huge Ace card, but unsure if he is still chicken---- after all these years to stand up to Lance.
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Old 06-18-11, 07:32 PM   #227
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Lots of people are falling back on this old nonsense that Lance was just 'leveling the playing field.'

This is completely untrue. There have always been drugs in cycling, and even, at times, organized doping programs within teams. The problem with Lance is that he not only used the best dope available, and retained the exclusive services of the best doping doctor in the world; but he also sought out and destroyed the careers of those trying to clean up the sport.

We're talking about a guy who would openly mock teammates who hesitated to use, and then of course would refuse to put them on the Tour team if they didn't.

During Lance's time, drug regimens developed that were extremely effective and extremely dangerous. If you were willing to take the risks, and your body responded well to them and you could afford it, you were riding with a huge advantage. It only takes a cursory examination of Lance's career before and after his cancer to see that this was a rider who was not likely to ever win a GT, who suddenly turned into one of the greatest stage racers of all time.
The problem for you is that he was working with Ferrari before and after. So, if you believe he doped pre-cancer (which I "always" assumed) and believe he doped post-cancer (which I now conclude he did) the question is: why did he "suddenly" become a GC rider post cancer, if he was doping his whole--if not, most of his professional career with Ferrari? Maybe, his weight loss did play into that more than his detractors are willing to admit. I do remember reading that Lemond said that he'd be "petrified" if he gained even a pound of muscle. Weight is a huge deal in cycling; and it's clear to me that Armstrong lost at least 10lbs after his bout with cancer.
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Old 06-19-11, 06:01 PM   #228
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Maybe, his weight loss did play into that more than his detractors are willing to admit. I do remember reading that Lemond said that he'd be "petrified" if he gained even a pound of muscle. Weight is a huge deal in cycling; and it's clear to me that Armstrong lost at least 10lbs after his bout with cancer.
Look how much mileage Wiggins got out of losing 16 or so pounds.

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Old 06-19-11, 08:10 PM   #229
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The problem for you is that he was working with Ferrari before and after. So, if you believe he doped pre-cancer (which I "always" assumed) and believe he doped post-cancer (which I now conclude he did) the question is: why did he "suddenly" become a GC rider post cancer, if he was doping his whole--if not, most of his professional career with Ferrari? Maybe, his weight loss did play into that more than his detractors are willing to admit. I do remember reading that Lemond said that he'd be "petrified" if he gained even a pound of muscle. Weight is a huge deal in cycling; and it's clear to me that Armstrong lost at least 10lbs after his bout with cancer.
I want to say I read somewhere that Lance raced at 180 pounds before cancer. I believe during his last couple of tours he was down around 165.
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Old 06-19-11, 08:46 PM   #230
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I believe during his last couple of tours he was down around 165.
I read mid 150s, which is very believable for his stated height of 5'10"
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Old 06-20-11, 05:54 AM   #231
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Look how much mileage Wiggins got out of losing 16 or so pounds.
Just playing devil's advocate here, but why do you assume Wiggo didn't dope? He, along with the rest of his Cofidis squad, withdrew from the Tour in '07 after Moreni failed a doping test.

It is hard to find a pro rider with NO ties to doping scandal.
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Old 06-20-11, 10:21 PM   #232
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Just playing devil's advocate here, but why do you assume Wiggo didn't dope? He, along with the rest of his Cofidis squad, withdrew from the Tour in '07 after Moreni failed a doping test.

It is hard to find a pro rider with NO ties to doping scandal.
I agree that it's hard to take things at face value these days, but Wiggins has been really outspoken about the whole doping issue. The '07 withdrawal was just a matter of him being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus, he's been really transparent with his training data, especially in '09 when he was with Garmin. If there's anyone who's clean these days, it's Wiggins.
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Old 06-25-11, 02:26 PM   #233
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No new news in awhile. Anyone else think someone will stir the pot again before TdF starts?
Consider it stirred: http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...Armstrong.html

Plus, what I'm hearing is that the grand jury might wrap up during the race.
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Old 06-25-11, 02:35 PM   #234
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Weight is a huge deal in cycling; and it's clear to me that Armstrong lost at least 10lbs after his bout with cancer.
Even as someone who doesnt believe in the armstrong myth anymore, after cancer he was absolutely a different cyclist. Before cancer, I believe he eventually would have left the pro peloton to become a pro triathlete and may have been the best ever there too, doping or not. I dont deny he has a huge engine, and maybe hard to go through cancer to harness the talent, that said, he doped and theres no excuse for it, and he won his tours on the backs of others who doped. Theres video evidence of Vaughters confessing, theres online IM evidence of JV and FA talking about it. Its doping, and its cheating, and in this sport people have admired cheaters for far too long.
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Old 06-25-11, 02:49 PM   #235
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i think the facts4lance twitter account and the actual site was a crazy floyd landis job, is this right? facts4lance is private now, has this been posted?

http://goo.gl/kC3vJ

"GreyManrod‎ @cycletard We are celebrating the arrival of full ****** @joelfelicio tempered by the disappearance of Facts4Lance.com"

greymanrod is floyd:

http://neilbrowne.com/2011/05/is-the...tes-interview/
True and false. The facts4lance site was set up by Lances attorney to combat the 60 minutes story. Lance forgot to have him grab the facts4lance twitter, so Floyd grabbed that. Then Floyd and NYVelocity created a couple more facts4lance sites (.org and .net) and directed them to gay porn and EPO buying sites.

The original facts4lance went away because Lances lawyer said they had successfully debunked all of the 60 minutes stories, which was funny because most of his "debunking" of the facts was really based on stuff he pulled off the Grey Manrod account. And Grey Manrod wasnt even just floyd, which is the best part: http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...Armstrong.html
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Old 06-27-11, 09:07 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Rotten Bastard View Post
I agree that it's hard to take things at face value these days, but Wiggins has been really outspoken about the whole doping issue. The '07 withdrawal was just a matter of him being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus, he's been really transparent with his training data, especially in '09 when he was with Garmin. If there's anyone who's clean these days, it's Wiggins.
You could say the exact same thing for Lance....

Again, just being Devil's Advocate here....
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