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Old 05-23-11, 12:05 PM   #51
crhilton
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either way, I don't really think many grand tour winners are clean, I think the sprinters are, cause that's a either you have it or you don't thing..
Not really. A sprinter has to get to the finish to do his thing. I believe Hamilton mentioned that in his interview last night: Something about sprinters doing too well in mountain stages.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:05 PM   #52
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The solution to doping is to have the public change their perception about what is expected or normal. Let's say right now the average time to complete a 100 mile stage is 4 hours (I am just making this up). I assume the same stage ridden in the 1930's didn't hav e 4 hour finishes. It might have taken 4:30 or 5. Or in baseball, nobody in the 1940's expected 73 homeruns from any player. They were content with 40 because that's the reality of it. That's what you expected to be the pinnacle of the sport. So if everyone stopped doping, maybe it'd take them 25% longer to finish a stage. Who cares. I already fast forward on my DVR anyway. The top athletes would still be on top.

As for anyone who believed Lance didn't dope, this about this - if EVERYONE else doped and Lance was clean, he is a superhuman. Everyone else had to dope just to lose to him.
Devil's Advocate: They didn't have 20 speed bikes that weighed 14 lbs in the 1930 and baseball fields have been steadily shrinking over the past 80 years. You have to account somewhat for those changes too, but overall PEDs have definitely made it impossible to know what is possible with todays technology which really sucks for anyone who actually is clean.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:06 PM   #53
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How sure are we that pre-EPO doping was helping them much? .
Well, Coppi stated that it was necessary "Almost all the time".

Last edited by Shimagnolo; 05-23-11 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:10 PM   #54
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I don't think so. I doubt there's more than a couple people around these forums, the 33 included, that could do 21 consecutive 100+ mile days with just 2 rest days. In their dreams maybe, yes, but otherwise no.
I don't have any problem believing that many BF posters who are good climbers could do that level of work if they were part of a decent size peloton with drafting sophistication. Other than climbs, only the point of the spear does a high level of work. Watching the telemetry of the guys sitting in in races like the Tour, their HR drops tremendously. With a pro peloton level of support, nutrition and aerodynamic efficiency, lots of people here could get it done. Just a lot slower. If I can do a sub 5 hr. century as part of a cooperative group of 20 or so riders, many more people here could ride 100 each day as part of a cooperative group. MerlinXL is a climber though, and like MXL, you'd need pretty good climber chops to get it done.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:40 PM   #55
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I have the feeling that EPO and blood doping are more significant than amphetamines.
A rather large body of research supports those feelings.

Using speed during a grand tour, even if we exclude Tom Simpson's death, can be more of a detriment than a help. Sleep and rest are severely impacted, and those are crucial to recovery. Some of the riders resorted to more pharma to counteract the effects, leading to a bit of a vicious cycle.
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Old 05-23-11, 01:37 PM   #56
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LeMond.... did he just take the weak stuff available at the time.
This.

Dude needs to stop blaming everyone else for his problems. The guy has no personal accountability for anything in his life - in or out of cyclling. His act is old.

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Old 05-23-11, 02:56 PM   #57
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I don't think so. I doubt there's more than a couple people around these forums, the 33 included, that could do 21 consecutive 100+ mile days with just 2 rest days. In their dreams maybe, yes, but otherwise no.
ah yes, but youre clearly not taking into account the added benefit of a "little training"?
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Old 05-23-11, 03:20 PM   #58
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Who was the last TDF winner who was not doping???? Ask that to lemond

Lemond said the same thing than Andreu and way before than him. And since nobody believed in lemond there is a big chance than the last one was just him.
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Old 05-23-11, 03:31 PM   #59
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Clen is an illegal PED. Attached is a description of what it does. Sounds like it gives a cyclist a pretty good competitive advantage. I also read an article that stated no clen has been detected in any Spanish beef since it was banned over three years ago. Maybe Alberto had a 4 year old piece of beef?

For a guy so willing to believe any piece of negative info you hear about Armstrong (hey, I'm not saying this guy is innocent), even stories recounted by admitted liars, you seem pretty "open minded" when it comes to Contador's lame excuse for his doping. Let me help you with this one. Clen is illegal. Alberto Contador tested positive. He said it came from "tainted beef". To date, they have not been able to identify the source of the beef or find any additional beef from the same lot with similar clen contamination. Hmmmmm.

Clenbuterol is often used in the off-season by dopers to stay lean and there is speculation that Contador may have withdrawn blood in the off-season with clen traces, assuming the earlier use would not be detectable. This may also explain the plasticizers found in his blood.

Perhaps Alberto did not count on the the samples being tested by a German lab that was really good at identifying trace amounts of banned substances. Either that or he scarfed down a sandwich made with 3 year old beef (before the substance was banned) that was tainted with Clen and plasticizers (you know the kind found in bags for blood transfusions). Heck, maybe the "especial" beef was wrapped in a tainted plastic baggie? Just sayin...

http://www.teamradioshack.us/clenbut...d-cycling-112/
Everyone knows the issue, I'm not sure why you're repeating two month old news.

I simply stated my opinion.
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Old 05-23-11, 05:20 PM   #60
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Devil's Advocate: They didn't have 20 speed bikes that weighed 14 lbs in the 1930 and baseball fields have been steadily shrinking over the past 80 years. You have to account somewhat for those changes too, but overall PEDs have definitely made it impossible to know what is possible with todays technology which really sucks for anyone who actually is clean.
Until 1937 it was 2 speed bikes, and quite possibly fixies. A huge difference. I do no tremember the year, but one huge advance was a rider who welded or braises on pegs, like there are on motorcycles, be would rest his feet on the pegs when decending, instead of having to have his legs still circle with the pedals on decents. Huge advantage at the time.
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Old 05-23-11, 05:24 PM   #61
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I don't think so. I doubt there's more than a couple people around these forums, the 33 included, that could do 21 consecutive 100+ mile days with just 2 rest days. In their dreams maybe, yes, but otherwise no.
I see the makings of a BF challenge. Lets say 1,000 miles in 11 days so roughly 10 centuries and one rest day. Each day's ride would need a minimun of 5,000 ft of climbing or the equivalent for longer or shorter days (to prevent people from driving to the top of mountain and coasting down 10 times) maybe more or some specific number of hill climbs, etc. Whatever, people can work out the details. After you have done 1,000 miles in 11 days you post your results from your computer to help give some objectivity. Yes, plenty of ways to cheat but we're on the honor system. It's BF after all so who would lie?
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Old 05-23-11, 06:58 PM   #62
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Carlos Sastre in 2008.
This was my first thought.
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Old 05-23-11, 07:51 PM   #63
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I think it's funny you guys think Lemond didn't do anything…
Really I was just kidding. I think they ALL doped.
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Old 05-23-11, 08:36 PM   #64
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Really I was just kidding. I think they ALL doped.
to some degree i believe so, I just think mathematically it's impossible for the human body to do what they do in a grand tour…at least the top 5% or so.
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Old 05-23-11, 08:53 PM   #65
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1) Lemond was riding in the grupetto in the 1989 Giro until he had an "iron" injection. He was then one of the to guys in the ITT and six weeks later he won the Tour.

2) Lemond never talked about doping being why he had such a drop off until Armstrong won the Tour. Before then it was always his disease from the lead in his system that caused it.

3) In 1989 Lemond beat an admitted doper who tested positive during that 1989 season.

4) Talking about how PED's in the 80's weren't as good so it wasn't bad is a bS excuse. Doping is doping.

(side note: Lemond is one of the big reasons I started cycling when I was in junior high in the early-mid 80's)
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Old 05-23-11, 09:40 PM   #66
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Lemond never talked about doping being why he had such a drop off until Armstrong won the Tour. Before then it was always his disease from the lead in his system that caused it.
that's one thing that always bugged me--the "Lemond was forced out due to EPO."
well, maybe there's some validity to that. but when he dropped out of the '92 tour
andy hampsten was on his way to winning at alpe 'dhiez, and andy is usally considered
a "clean" rider. so, if andy, like lemond, wasn't doping, why is it that andy was able, unlike
lemond, to ride at the front? i'm not saying that epo didn't make the peloton faster, im saying
that it sems higly suspect to me that "passive doping" was the reason lemond ended his career
on such a low-note.
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Old 05-23-11, 11:04 PM   #67
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I got EPO while I was getting chemo in 2006. The stuff is absolute magic juice. I have no doubt that a few hematocrit points makes a signficant difference to riders in a long race.
I got it while on dialysis. It was the only way I could walk up 3 floors of stairs w/o having to sit down halfway up; so yeah, magic juice.

We pronounce it "eepo" at Rush Hospital in Chicago. EE-P-O in layman's terms.
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Old 05-24-11, 12:54 AM   #68
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I don't believe Contador dopes.

Clen? Come on man, that's not dope.

It seems very unlikely that Greg LeMond doped.
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The answer is easy: Alberto Contador.

It wasn't EPO/ dope, it was "tainted beef". Just go ahead and ask him (or his lawyers) if you want the truth.
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I actually believe this. Or maybe I just choose to.

I might be the only one.
I agree. Contador is clean and so was Lemond
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Old 05-24-11, 09:52 AM   #69
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I have the feeling that EPO and blood doping are more significant than amphetamines.
I have a feeling your feeling is right. As someone who used to have a prescription to amphetamine (Adderall) during college, I can honestly say it isn't going to do anything except give you a temporary feeling of euphoria and happiness, as well as a false sense of extra strength or energy. It only affects brain chemistry, not your body's real ability to recover and endure. It isn't exactly safe to use with physical activity either (heart attack). It throws you off your sleep schedule and crashing on it really sucks. It's great for studying and getting through those days after a hard night of partying, but otherwise it's addictive and destructive.

PEDs like EPO are different. EPO actually enhances the body's ability to produce red blood cells, which leads to faster recovery time and better endurance. I don't know much about its health effects with long-term use, however.

Personally, I don't see where the line gets drawn with performance enhancers in cycling, or in other sports for that matter. Have any of you been to a GNC or other vitamin shop? The line between "nutrition" and "performance enhancers" is so blurred it's not even funny. I say let them take what they want. If it's healthy and improves performance WITHOUT HARMING THE BODY I don't see a problem with it, whether it's a food or "drug." If it's unhealthy or dangerous, that burden is placed on the people dumb or desperate enough to use it.

In the end, we are all human. We have physical limitations. I say let cyclists eat, do, inject whatever they want to their own bodies. When it's all said and done it still takes a world-class athlete to do what these guys are doing.

I, for one, don't think I'll ever resort to doping because I have no need to. Cycling isn't how I make a living.
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Old 05-24-11, 02:34 PM   #70
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Fausto Coppi freely admitted to doping in NINETEEN FORTY-NINE.
So at what point since then did pro cycling suddenly decide to give it up?
Yes, but it also was not against the rules back then. I don't believe Lemond doped. He was just very naturally gifted. He was a guy that could climb, time trial, and sprint; a rare combination. I think he was probably the most physically gifted American cyclist. If it was not for that hunting accident in 1987, I believe that he would have probably won a couple more grand tours, and perhaps even a few classics.
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Old 05-24-11, 05:16 PM   #71
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Doping in cycling is older than the TdF, so...never.
I agree. Even Fred Flintstone had to dope to move that car around. Did you see the size of his feet?!
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Old 05-25-11, 03:40 PM   #72
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How far back do you have to go to say with near certainty that a winner was not doping?
Carlos Sastre
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Old 05-26-11, 03:45 PM   #73
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I got it while on dialysis. It was the only way I could walk up 3 floors of stairs w/o having to sit down halfway up; so yeah, magic juice.

We pronounce it "eepo" at Rush Hospital in Chicago. EE-P-O in layman's terms.
EPO often has a different effect on someone who is on dialysis and therefore anemic, versus someone who has a normal or high hematocrit. At least one study found no effect on hematocrit when epo was given to subjects with a normal hematocrit level. One of the doctors speculated that in order to effectively increase the hematocrit of healthy individuals, iron injections would need to be done as well. There are cases where athletes & healthy individuals did not like the results of injecting epo, they did not feel as well & their performance may have actually been worse. Eric Zabel claimed he didn't like they way he felt after using it.
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Old 05-26-11, 03:47 PM   #74
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Carlos Sastre
And why would this be? Especially when he comes from a culture that condones it.
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Old 05-26-11, 05:15 PM   #75
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Did Maurice Garin take EPO?
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