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Thread: Clentabore

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    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Clentabore

    First he was Clentador, then he morphed into Clentabore....

    So he's a cheat who tests positive but still gets to ride unlike say, Fyu liu.... Or.... Landis!

    But the really annoying part is that he has turned the potentially exciting Giro into a real bore! (Not to mention potentially meaningless).

    God I hope ASO shows some guts and do not let him race the Tour.

    It is odd how last year's Giro was so much more exciting with evenly matched riders.... Ditto for the 2008 Tour (which had real non UCI testing, btw...)

    Contador riding in the Tour is like those local (you know at least one, right?) losers who are very strong riders and join beginners rides to give themselves an ego boost by crushing the others.... Makes it all meaningless and not fun....
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

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    snob rogwilco's Avatar
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    I didn't want Contador to ride in the Giro and I don't want him to ride in the Tour. However I've mellowed significantly in my (previously very strong) anger/hatred towards him during this Giro. Yes, he makes it look easy by being so good, and yes, that's sort of unexciting because it's not even close. But he's just so ****ing beautiful to watch on the bike (no ho.mo ), when he taps the pedals a couple times and rips open a ****ing grand canyon of a gap like his opponents are a bunch of five-year-olds on tricycles; plus his pure class in giving stage wins to deserving riders like Rujano and Tiralongo instead of embarrassing everyone with his strength (which he could have done too).

    I'm sorry, but I'm starting to like Contador.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
    I didn't want Contador to ride in the Giro and I don't want him to ride in the Tour. However I've mellowed significantly in my (previously very strong) anger/hatred towards him during this Giro. Yes, he makes it look easy by being so good, and yes, that's sort of unexciting because it's not even close. But he's just so ****ing beautiful to watch on the bike (no ho.mo ), when he taps the pedals a couple times and rips open a ****ing grand canyon of a gap like his opponents are a bunch of five-year-olds on tricycles; plus his pure class in giving stage wins to deserving riders like Rujano and Tiralongo instead of embarrassing everyone with his strength (which he could have done too).

    I'm sorry, but I'm starting to like Contador.
    Now that Lance is out of the picture, I think more and more fans are starting to recognize how exceptional of a rider AC really is. The reality is most that hate him, do so because the Lance issue. I've gotten to where I'm numb to the whole drug issue. We'll never know for certain who is and who isn't doping. The governing bodies are going to do what they will. So getting all riled up about it is pointless. And being all emotional about it just gets in the way of enjoying the sport. We are in the midst of watching what may be one of the best grand tour riders of all time in his prime.
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

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    Senior Member DLBroox's Avatar
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    If you only really care about the GC competition, than maybe you did think it was boring, but I think there is so much more to it than that.

    And all things being equal, or not, who cares...Contador is an amazing athlete, as are all these guys. Even the guy that finishes last would have to be an exceptional athlete to complete this race.

    Personally, I loved every bit of it. With the exception of the tragic loss of a rider, of course.

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    I loved the long solo breakaways. They are borring as hell to watch but its so epic.

    I also think contador is learning how to race tactically. He attacked on an early stage that no one thought would be important, just like he did in the tour the first year lance was back, and he got a huge gap because his competition wouldn't pull or work together out of fear of counter attacks. On the other stages he just sat and let other people waste energy then he would make one crushing move.

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    Senior Member gear's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=crocodilefundy;12711289]

    I also think contador is learning how to race tactically./QUOTE]

    He won five grand tours before this race, I think he knew how to be tactical long before now. When he rode with LA on Astana, they tried to have him take a back seat to LA by running to the media with this "can't be tactical" BS. It didn't wash then and it still doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau View Post
    But the really annoying part is that he has turned the potentially exciting Giro into a real bore! (Not to mention potentially meaningless).
    I take this to mean that, if the CAS finds against him, he will lose this Giro victory. Is that so? I'm not sure exactly how all of this will pan out, as he was legally allowed to ride til the verdict was in. If I was Angelo Zomegnan, and my Giro champ was stripped of victory under these circumstances, I might be a bit pissed.

    Is anyone sure about how this works? Can he lose this title?

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    " ... So he's a cheat who tests positive but still gets to ride ... "

    And you know this how, precisely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Namenda View Post
    I take this to mean that, if the CAS finds against him, he will lose this Giro victory. Is that so? I'm not sure exactly how all of this will pan out, as he was legally allowed to ride til the verdict was in. If I was Angelo Zomegnan, and my Giro champ was stripped of victory under these circumstances, I might be a bit pissed.

    Is anyone sure about how this works? Can he lose this title?
    Don't know for sure. I'm not even sure all of the organizers know for sure. The way its going, he could win the TdF this year too. Are they going to strip him of 3 grand tour victories? I gotta believe that this dragging out longer and longer works in AC's favor.
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
    " ... So he's a cheat who tests positive but still gets to ride ... "

    And you know this how, precisely?
    The same way the LA doped group does of course.

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    Senior Member MUZE's Avatar
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    I believe that if the appeal by UCI and WADA is upheld by the CAS AC will lose all victories since and including last year's TdF.

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    Senior Member gear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MUZE View Post
    I believe that if the appeal by UCI and WADA is upheld by the CAS AC will lose all victories since and including last year's TdF.
    I think it will only effect the race from which the test was taken. Can't remember if this was a test done during a race or during training but my bet is the closest race will be a DQ (if upheld), then he'll have to serve out a ban. Over the years others have won on appeals so who knows how this will play out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrionKhan View Post
    Don't know for sure. I'm not even sure all of the organizers know for sure. The way its going, he could win the TdF this year too. Are they going to strip him of 3 grand tour victories? I gotta believe that this dragging out longer and longer works in AC's favor.
    THIS. It was Contador's team that requested the delay. Yet all along they indicated they had an extremely strong case - to the point they even mentioned that UCI probably wouldn't appeal given what the UCI knew about the strength of the Contador case.

    Then suddenly, they need more time? And it just so happens that he'll have the Giro and TdF sewn up and probably be knee deep into the Vuelta.

    Mark my words - unless his form crashes, or the blood bags spoil, he'll win all three at this rate. The competition isn't at his level. He's better at all the dark and dangerous stuff (better doctors, trainers, even drugs ... but I suspect he's using micro-doses outside of competition and doping his own blood back during the tours ... as did Lance and as do most of the real contenders. Let's stop kidding ourselves).

    So with all three jerseys, and a plausible case that mirrors the one Indurian had against him, who is going to take down Contador.

    Like him or loathe him - he is a media g-d. His acts of benevolence at the Giro have gotten many of those who dislike him to actually come to see him as a pretty decent guy. You can't hate him for being, genuinely, a far better rider than everyone else. It is just like Lance. I liked Lance a lot as a rider and still like him as an "ambassador" of the sport and for his work with charity.

    BUT - like Rogwilco I'm really starting to appreciate Alberto. Alberto is much the same as Lance ... but he isn't American! And I suspect it is that last little bit of what I said that makes Alberto an issue whereas Lance can remain a hero.

    This Giro made me come to appreciate Alberto as the only person in the modern era who has the right blend of desire, skill, and yes "training methods" to give a go at the mantle of Merckx. He is a truly great, all-around cyclist. He's taken the Lance method (Focus on a race) to the next level. Merckx rode everything with an eye to win it -- Alberto does the same. For that same reason I think Andy Schleck will not win while Alberto rides. One will gut himself -- the other will say there is always tomorrow. (Sorry Andy - it hurts me as well to just type that).

    Truth is, I now find myself routing for Alberto. Sure I don't like riders winning by 10 minutes. But remember "in the day" riders would win by 30 or more minutes. Sometimes gaps like that make it MORE exciting, as people have nothing to lose. Isn't that why we all wanted to believe in Floyd? He went out and rode back into contention. He buried the competition on one stage. Don't we all want that again! Who needs these 1 minute gaps in the GC? Everyone rides the queen stage together to see what will happen in the last 5km on a mountain top finish? It's like basketball all of a sudden ... watch the last 5 minutes and you'll see all that matters.

    Lance is gone and retired. He was the king and he is "dead". Long live the new king - Alberto.

    And remember, they are all doing stuff with needles. That was the way it was in Year 1 of the TdF and will be for the rest of time.

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    Senior Member MUZE's Avatar
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    From VeloNews.....it's up to the CAS whether subsequent results will stand. There is a portion of the article below.



    “The UCI, in accordance with existing anti-doping rules, has asked for the disqualification of all results made between the day of the control (in the 2010 Tour) and the first day of a suspension, if there is one,” UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani told VeloNews. “That is the general framework in which we work. That’s why our appeal mentions this option.”
    Carpani cited two articles in the anti-doping language. The first, Article 10.8 in the World Anti-Doping Code; and the second, Article 313 of the UCI’s anti-doping rules; both outline that results obtained from an positive doping case to any disciplinary guilty ruling can be annulled.
    Carpani said that the UCI is pushing for a strict interpretation of the rules and suggested that CAS can make its own decision at the time of any possible ruling against Contador.
    “CAS has the ultimate authority to rule its interpretation,” he said. “We would be ready to accept any decision by CAS.”
    If CAS does rule against Contador and applies the rules as requested by the UCI, Contador stands to lose overall titles and stage victories as well as prize money he’s won since he returned to racing in mid-February, when the Spanish cycling federation cleared him on doping charges.
    Contador returned to the Volta ao Algarve, where he did not win a stage or the overall, but won two stages and the overall at the Vuelta a Murcia in early March. Next, he won a stage at the Vuelta a Castilla y Leon before taking another stage and the overall title at the Volta a Catalunya in late March. In May, he won two stages and the points jersey en route to overall victory at the Giro last week. Contador has won eight races so far in 2011.

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    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    I didn't like him when he was immature both tactically and socially. But he's coming around. Now I just don't like him because he cheated, got caught and still rides. For that I blame him and all the authorities. They've tainted this season by allowing him to ride. I quit watching the Giro 1/2 way through because it was obvious what the outcome would be and I had better things to do, like ride. If Contador chooses to ride the Tour I'll probably skip that to in favor of, you guessed it, riding. There's always next year or post-ban. When he comes back from suspension I'll give a fresh look at him. Cheers

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    kleinboogie - based on that litmus test you wouldn't have watched any of the grand tours the last decade plus. Hate to say it but the case against Contador is at the same level as the case against Lance.

    Let's face it - those who are caught doping aren't the only ones doping. And they aren't the best at doping. The are the worst at avoiding getting caught!

    Contador will not get suspended. They'll rule on him the same as with other "accidental ingestions". I'm sure I'll hear about the plasticiers ... and yes they do bother me. But there is no test for them (argument my hero Lance is using re his 99 samples ....) and you can't test one person and punish them without randomly testing all.

    Let's face it ... at the speeds of today's grand tour riders they are all using needles for something more than vitamins. Whether it is drugs (in training to build a base, or during competition to give them an edge), or just blood doping (bags of stored and fresh blood ready for rest days or to give a rider a two/three day "jump start" on recovery).

    They are all doing something ... maybe not ALL but darn near close to it.

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    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxroadie View Post
    kleinboogie - based on that litmus test you wouldn't have watched any of the grand tours the last decade plus. Hate to say it but the case against Contador is at the same level as the case against Lance.
    A lot of faces in that post and your assumption is incorrect and I certainly do not prescribe to the belief that everyone does it. There's usually a chuckle moment when I'm talking to someone who believes that but nothing more. I always give riders the benefit of the doubt. I want to see two positive results and a ban, period. No exceptions. Contador met that test but continues which is the problem I have. I just won't let pessimism ruin cycling but when someone is proven to have cheated and the ruling bodies can't do anything about it then the system is broken. That's the problem I have. They'll pay for it by losing me as a spectator of races that rider is in until they sort it out. Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by luxroadie View Post
    Hate to say it but the case against Contador is at the same level as the case against Lance.
    I don't get this. Contador returned a positive test at the '10 TdF, right? The case against Lance, while weighty, does not involve a positive test (unless you count the infamous Tour of Suisse 'positive').

    Or do you just mean they have the same publicity or something?

    Because evidence-wise they seem completely different. One case involves a small amount of quite definitive evidence, and the other involves a large amount of less-than-definitive evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kleinboogie View Post
    A lot of faces in that post and your assumption is incorrect and I certainly do not prescribe to the belief that everyone does it. There's usually a chuckle moment when I'm talking to someone who believes that but nothing more. I always give riders the benefit of the doubt. I want to see two positive results and a ban, period. No exceptions. Contador met that test but continues which is the problem I have. I just won't let pessimism ruin cycling but when someone is proven to have cheated and the ruling bodies can't do anything about it then the system is broken. That's the problem I have. They'll pay for it by losing me as a spectator of races that rider is in until they sort it out. Cheers
    Kleinbooggie - not sure what faces you are talking about. You haven't said everyone does it - and I didn't infer you did. I DID say (imply) most do and by most I mean most who contend in a meaningful way. Anyone can win a race - stage or one day. Those who do so repeatedly are doing something to structure their plan. Let's face it .. Merckx did. Antiqueil did. Indurain did. And frankly -- can anyone believe Lemond didn't?

    So stop kidding ourselves. They weren't shooting heroin. They weren't taking vials of horse steroids. But since the days of old - since the very first days of stage races, riders were taking uppers. And as drugs evolved, so did the speeds of the race.

    Live life as an "American" (ps I am but I live in Europe, I ride in Europe and my kids are now racing in Europe - are yours?).

    But the reality is ... if your choice is riding a tractor and shoveling cow sh-it all day or riding a bike and kissing podium girls ... what would you do? What is your dream. Have you ever met a low level director sportif? Said differently, have you ever met someone slimeyier than a bad used car salesman?

    Have you ever sat with neighbors who think the only way their kids can escape small farm town European life is to listen to that snake charmer?


    Believe what Bill Strickland, ESPN and Lance tell you. The world doesn't work like that. The pressure on these kids doesn't work like America.

  20. #20
    Heretic Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxroadie View Post

    Have you ever sat with neighbors who think the only way their kids can escape small farm town European life is to listen to that snake charmer?


    Believe what Bill Strickland, ESPN and Lance tell you. The world doesn't work like that. The pressure on these kids doesn't work like America.
    Nonsense.

    Europe is not the third world. Whatever the pressures on aspiring professonal cyclists are they are no different whether they come from the U.S., Europe or Australia.

    In fact with third level education either heavily subsidised or free in most European states the chances of upward and outward mobility are probably greater here than in the U.S.
    History is the future

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    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    OP should be banned for life.
    i may have overreacted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
    Nonsense.

    Europe is not the third world. Whatever the pressures on aspiring professonal cyclists are they are no different whether they come from the U.S., Europe or Australia.

    In fact with third level education either heavily subsidised or free in most European states the chances of upward and outward mobility are probably greater here than in the U.S.
    Caretaker - I've held off responding til I "took care" to think this through. I spent the last week speaking with folks who have kids who live/ride in Belgium, France and Germany (and of course Lux). I printed out this thread and shared your comment.

    I am an American whose children ride with US licenses - they ride with the understanding that it is my assignment (and what it means to us in terms of career and opportunity) that dictates their future (the older two - 12 and 14).

    They have spoken with their friends. Kids who ride who don't speak English - who speak Letzeburgish, German, Flemish (rare) and French.

    I've spoken with their parents - folks who we've given support to so that their kids can make it to camps in the Alps. So that they can continue to progress in the national programs here in Lux.

    And the resounding outcome is ... you are wrong.

    It is not nonsense. You are wrong. Ireland is a different place - most definitely Dublin. And riding in Europe (yes - sorry in this case Europe means the non-Anglo, non-Irish Tiger world that you are accustomed to) is different.

    I just came back from the Wicklow 200. A day (in hurricane like conditions! But a great ride in an Amazing country with the most fabulous people who support cycling WAY MORE THAN THE US). And even asking them - with folks from Donegal, Kerry, and Cork, they all note that cycling isn't the "class breaker" nor are there as many reasons to "class break" as what I described.

    So I'll note that while your experience in Ireland - and that of a fair portion of the 3 million people who live in Ireland - many be different. That you are NOT IN A POSITION to say "nonsense" to my observations - real life and from the mouths of people who live their own lives.

    You can consider your apology registered. You aren't intending to be wrong. But you haven't ridden a mile in these kids shoes.

    And if you would like to - PM me. I have parents who are interested in meeting you. And who will want you to define chances for their children that they, as parents, seemingly have failed to explore for generations.

  23. #23
    Heretic Caretaker's Avatar
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    luxroadie,

    Well, consider my apology unregistered.

    I stand by everything. I was responding to your characterisation of "small town European life" and your "The pressure on these kids doesn't work like America".

    You don't know me. You don't know what I have or haven't experienced. You don't know where I have or haven't lived.

    "non-Irish tiger world you are accustomed to"

    What do you know what I'm accustomed to?

    My advice to you is to calm down. If this is how you react when someone disagrees with you even if they do so strongly you have a serious problem.

    My previous post made three simple points:
    1. Europe is not the 3rd World.
    2. The pressures on youngsters who want to be pro cyclists are no different in Europe than in the U.S. or Australia.
    3. Access to university/college education is for financial reasons easier in Europe than in the U.S.

    Three simple points. No personal abuse.

    If your problem is with my use of the word 'nonsense' then I'll happily withdraw it.

    You can agree or disagree. Your friends can agree or disagree.
    History is the future

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