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Old 07-19-11, 01:58 PM   #1
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Cycling Not a Team sport, lets clear this up

It seems like the American public have been "Lancified" into thinking cycling is a "team" sport.

Well, Ill do my best to try to explain why it is not a team sport, but would admit, APPEARS to be a team sport.
Teams exist in cycling because of the way they organized races back in the day. They did it by country. In those cases, the true sense of the word was squad.
These days teams exist because as someone mentioned, its easier for sponsors and managers to have an organized, interchangeable roster of riders so as to allow for different terrain, injuries and race types. Further more, the dynamics of sponsorship makes it so that the whole "team" thing plays up in the tactics of races, not because cycling is a team sport. Dont confuse the necessities of sponsorship maintenance to mean that cycling is a team sport.
I think the biggest problem with people who havent raced think that teams "working" for somebody means something, or rather, immediately makes it a team sport. The fact of the matter is that the peleton will chase a breakaway, regardless of teams or no teams, believe me. Every single person in the peleton is trying to win. Just because there are no teams, does not mean that the peleton will automatically just stop at the side of the road and let a break away go. I am really confused as to where people got that notion from. If cycling did not have squads (and squads are really the correct definition), trust me, absolutely nothing about cycling would change. You would still have break aways, you would still have a peleton, and you would still have "lead-out trains." Teams make no difference in the matter, other than that they are the same color. Sprinters will always sprint from the last 500m. They will always jostle around in the bunch in the final meters regardless of teams or not.

People also look at the Tour once a year and listen to the commentary and form a picture of pro cycling. There is nothing about the Tour de France that's normal, other than that it's hard like other races. The Tour works in a VERY different way than regular day-to-day races.
In pro cycling, every race is EACH man's game. EVERY man is trying to win. And when I say that, I mean that there is actually a podium position that has a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd place, again, Im not sure how people fail to see this. Its like saying that the 1500m run at the olympic games is a team sport. Do they have pacemakers, sure, are they in a "team" of course they are, is it a team sport, of course not. Just because they have team tactics, does qualify it as a team sport. Basketball is a team sport. Soccer is a team sport, and so on. In the latter sport, its a team that wins a world cup, not an individual, and my golly, guess what, an individual wins a world cup in cycling. Actually takes a rocket scientist these days to recognize that apparently.
You dont see "lead-out-trains" in Milan-San Remo, or any classics race, and mind you, there are lots of them, and Ill remind you that they are very big, and very important.
World championship races have no teams "working." Thats doesnt exist. Its just whoever has the power to come to the front.
Most pro races are about surviving, or winning. Neo-pro races are even more so.
We always had a chit-chat in the team bus before the race about all the wonderful "team plans" we had, but guess what, when the race begins, its a matter of kill or be killed. Dont confuse for a second a grand Tour and a representation of pro-cycling.

Lance Armstrong is a drug-cheating pickle that sang the "i wouldnt have done it without my team" song, which Cav admits taught him to say that for the pretty TV cameras. People who watch the Tour start to think that its the day-to-day way of pro cycling, its not.
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Old 07-19-11, 02:14 PM   #2
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You would have a hard time convincing Johan Van Summeren (he's not an American). Have you been imbibing again?
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Old 07-19-11, 02:15 PM   #3
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I think you're overestimating the importance of winning races in pro cycling, and underestimating the importance of making money.

Every man is NOT trying to win. The MAJORITY of riders in a grand tour are solely dedicated to helping one of their teammates win so they too can make more money. Having a team in a classic is just an act of hedging your bets. It's more likely that someone on your team will win, than the likelihood of you winning.

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Old 07-19-11, 02:16 PM   #4
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You would have a hard time convincing Johan Van Summeren (he's not an American). Have you been imbibing again?
Is he a PAID pro? Paid as in, he has a team SPONSOR? there you go.
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Old 07-19-11, 02:17 PM   #5
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I think you're overestimating the importance of winning races in pro cycling, and underestimating the importance of making money.
I take that as a good argument. This I know, makes the world go round.
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Old 07-19-11, 02:23 PM   #6
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Every single person in the peleton is trying to win...

In pro cycling, every race is EACH man's game. EVERY man is trying to win.
These statements are simply untrue. The grand tours are different from most races, yes, but to say that in all other races every participant is trying to win, that team tactics don't exist, that deals aren't done both within and between teams is just plain wrong.
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Old 07-19-11, 02:24 PM   #7
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Speaking about his move to Garmin-Cervélo, Hushovd said: “I’m proud to join Team Garmin-Cervélo in 2011. Cervélo has been a great supporter for the past two years and its partnership with Garmin feels like a good fit,” said Hushovd. “I chose Garmin-Cervélo because I have a lot of respect for what Jonathan Vaughters has done for cycling, because I think we’ll have a very strong, competitive team, and because I’ll be able to continue to work with Cervélo. I look forward to seeing what we can all do together next year.”
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Old 07-19-11, 02:27 PM   #8
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Speaking about his move to Garmin-Cervélo, Hushovd said: “I’m proud to join Team Garmin-Cervélo in 2011. Cervélo has been a great supporter for the past two years and its partnership with Garmin feels like a good fit,” said Hushovd. “I chose Garmin-Cervélo because I have a lot of respect for what Jonathan Vaughters has done for cycling, because I think we’ll have a very strong, competitive team, and because I’ll be able to continue to work with Cervélo. I look forward to seeing what we can all do together next year.”
I don't necessarily agree with Howzit, but those quotes prove nothing. That's just good PR and he's spouting cliches. How happy do you think he really was after Paris Roubaix this year? If he really believed what he was saying he wouldn't be switching teams next year.
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Old 07-19-11, 02:28 PM   #9
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It seems like the American public have been "Lancified" into thinking cycling is a "team" sport.
I guess you don't remember Greg Lemond talking about the issues involved in 1986 when the team was split between him and Bernard Hinault.

You might also want to rethink your comments about Worlds in light of Alan Peiper's description of the bidding war between him and Phil Anderson to buy the support of the Australian team.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:07 PM   #10
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How many more threads are you going to start on this subject, Howzit?
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Old 07-19-11, 03:08 PM   #11
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I guess you don't remember Greg Lemond talking about the issues involved in 1986 when the team was split between him and Bernard Hinault.
Exactly, and what difference did that make? none.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:12 PM   #12
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......The grand tours are different from most races, yes, but to say that....... .that team tactics don't exist, ..... is just plain wrong.
Who exactly said or is saying this?
I SAID, team tactics dont make cycling a team sport, or more accurately, I said dont confuse team tactics to mean that cycling is a team sport.

Anything that you can do as a team you can do with other riders not in your team, contingent that you are all trying to win, and that you would ally with a comrade of same jersey colors before anyone else.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:12 PM   #13
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I don't necessarily agree with Howzit, but those quotes prove nothing. That's just good PR and he's spouting cliches. How happy do you think he really was after Paris Roubaix this year? If he really believed what he was saying he wouldn't be switching teams next year.
You said it.....Teams.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:15 PM   #14
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Anything that you can do as a team you can do with other riders not in your team, contingent that you are all trying to win, and that you would ally with a comrade of same jersey colors before anyone else.
But they aren't all trying to win. Anyone who says they are simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:18 PM   #15
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Exactly, and what difference did that make? none.
That's not the point. You claim the concept of the winner being dependent on his team began with Armstrong. (I'm always glad to help with a reminder)
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It seems like the American public have been "Lancified" into thinking cycling is a "team" sport.
From the Lemond example, at least 13 years earlier winners were talking about the importance of strong team support.

It was a nice try at the old misdirection trick though.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:22 PM   #16
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Who exactly said or is saying this?
I SAID, team tactics dont make cycling a team sport, or more accurately, I said dont confuse team tactics to mean that cycling is a team sport.

Anything that you can do as a team you can do with other riders not in your team, contingent that you are all trying to win, and that you would ally with a comrade of same jersey colors before anyone else.
So you can get someone on another team to block for you? You can get someone on another team to stop and wait while you get a new wheel, then pace you back to the group? You're blowing wind, Howzit, not that you'll ever realize or admit it.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:26 PM   #17
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god i miss tour season/howzit *****es nonsensically about everything season

cycling is a unique sport in that it can exist as a team sport as well as an individual sport. it just depends what level you ride at. furthermore, i believe that a TEAM is simpler than tactics and riding for someone else. if you wanna get technical about it, a team as defined by merriam-webster as "a number of persons associated together in work or activity." so it doesn't matter what the tactics are. you are associated together, you are a team. when i ran cross country, on race day we all ran as individuals. but between those races, we trained together, ate together, supported each other. we were a team. you can call that a "squad" if you want, but you are just arguing pointless semantics to stir the pot since, i presume, everyone in your real life quit letting you talk about cycling long ago.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:38 PM   #18
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This thread is simply Howzit taking yet another angle to demonstrate his hatred for all things Lance.

I guess he wants us to believe that Jens for example is back again hoping to win the Tour, Domestiques don't have a role on their teams, guys like Navarro really think they are going to win, Zubeldia, Zabriske, Hincapie, Renshaw, et al are really GC contenders but we are to stupid to realize it.

How many years before the pure hatred of lance fades and people return to living in the present?
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Old 07-19-11, 03:38 PM   #19
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So you can get someone on another team to block for you? You can get someone on another team to stop and wait while you get a new wheel, then pace you back to the group? You're blowing wind, Howzit, not that you'll ever realize or admit it.
Heck can you get away with just sitting on wheels of a chase group because you have some agreement wit a guy on some other team who is up the road?

The other riders change how they think about things based on what team the various riders are on.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:39 PM   #20
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You said it.....Teams.
Yes, teams exist. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with Howzit and I do believe that teamwork exists in cycling, even in the classics. But you can't show quotes from a guy blowing smoke up your ass to prove a point. That's like posting a quote of Lance's latest denial as evidence that he didn't dope.
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Old 07-19-11, 03:41 PM   #21
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This thread is simply Howzit taking yet another angle to demonstrate his hatred for all things Lance.

I guess he wants us to believe that Jens for example is back again hoping to win the Tour, Domestiques don't have a role on their teams, guys like Navarro really think they are going to win, Zubeldia, Zabriske, Hincapie, Renshaw, et al are really GC contenders but we are to stupid to realize it.

How many years before the pure hatred of lance fades and people return to living in the present?
Eddy knew how much team mattered. One of my favorite stages was wher he put almost 8 minutes on everyone. Team was involved, but some people on htis thread have no clue how important it was having Vandenbossche in the group chasing Merckx. Without a teammate the risk would not have been acceptable.
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Old 07-19-11, 04:25 PM   #22
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So you can get someone on another team to block for you?
There is no such thing as blocking in cycling, boxing in maybe, echelon guttering maybe, but if you block anybody in cycling you are being thrown out of a race. You obviously have never raced.
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Old 07-19-11, 04:28 PM   #23
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.....I do believe that teamwork exists in cycling, even in the classics......
Thats the problem with Americans and the English language.
You seem to be the only one who understands normal English.
Im not saying teamwork doesnt exist, Im saying cycling is not a team sport.

Anybody who reads this, do me a quick favor, replace team with squad, and you will better understand the argument here.
'In other words, cycling is a squad based sport, not a team sport.'
Please observe every word, and its placement in that last statement.
Basketball, baseball, soccer, rugby are team sports. Cycling is an individual sport, thats why it has individual podium positions, Im not sure what other way in English to explain this.

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Old 07-19-11, 04:30 PM   #24
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But seriously, Howitz is just a troll who's somehow managed not to get banned.
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Old 07-19-11, 04:34 PM   #25
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But seriously, Howitz is just a troll who's somehow managed not to get banned.
Im not sure how this is an argument to the topic. Oh wait, you are resorting to name calling after exhausting your arsenal of debatable points.... i get it.
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