TdF Observation
#1
Let's do a Century
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 8,316
Bikes: Cervelo R3 Disc, Pinarello Prince/Campy SR; Cervelo R3/Sram Red; Trek 5900/Duraace, Lynskey GR260 Ultegra
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 651 Post(s)
Liked 879 Times
in
408 Posts
TdF Observation
For me, the names at the top of the standings are not all that glamorous-have not even heard of some of them but admit I don't follow professional cycling that closely. However so far I think I've enjoyed watching this year even more than past few years. I think a lot of it is seeing the teamwork, strategy and individual skills. Today's stage was a good example. How the fella won had a lot to do with experience and strategy. Also the fact that some teammates being stronger on the climbs than the GC contenders is intriguing. Also the ruling at the finish line on one of the sprints. I hope the remaining stages continue to be interesting.
__________________
Ride your Ride!!
Ride your Ride!!
#2
Time for a change.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Posts: 19,913
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
I thought todays stage was boring. No action except over the last 10 kms from the breakaway and nothing else to excite. Team members may be stronger in certain disciplines on certain days than the GC contenders but The TDF requires overall skills.
But watching every day live on TV and it is building up to something good. Others can't understand how I find a big group of riders in a line or bunch doing nothing except pedal interesting- but there is always something going on that will bear a relationship later in each days stage.
But watching every day live on TV and it is building up to something good. Others can't understand how I find a big group of riders in a line or bunch doing nothing except pedal interesting- but there is always something going on that will bear a relationship later in each days stage.
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.
Spike Milligan
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.
Spike Milligan
#3
Senior Member
No spoilers please. I'm watching today's stage when I get home. At least I know I can fast forward to the last 10 km.
I really enjoyed yesterday's stage. I wonder what might have happened if Froome and Van Garteren had been left to their own devices. I also hope they stay clean. I don't think the sport can take too many more doping scandals.
I really enjoyed yesterday's stage. I wonder what might have happened if Froome and Van Garteren had been left to their own devices. I also hope they stay clean. I don't think the sport can take too many more doping scandals.
__________________
Momento mori, amor fati.
Momento mori, amor fati.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times
in
364 Posts
I suppose long term it would be about the same as a baseball lead-off hitter swinging for the fence. Once in awhile it might work but the team results are maximized when everybody performs their job.
#5
Road Runner
There have been complaints that the Tour is getting too "predictable", as it seems to follow the same pattern year after year lately as far as the various jersey competitions are concerned.
#6
Senior Member
The GC was pretty predictable from 1999 to 2005.
__________________
Momento mori, amor fati.
Momento mori, amor fati.
#7
Banned.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 8,651
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
These complaints are as old as the race. Those who don't like the results always complain. In 1974 Eddy Merckx was asked by the organisers not to compete, because he'd won four in a row and there was such hostility among the French public at the thought of a Belgian equalling Anquetil's record. And in 1975, on his way to winning five, he was punched in the kidneys by an outraged fan on one of the climbs. Having him win was, apparently, "boring" and bad for the race.
There's nothing especially predictable about this year's Tour.
Last edited by chasm54; 07-13-12 at 03:00 PM.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
These complaints are as old as the race. Those who don't like the results always complain. In 1974 Eddy Merckx was asked by the organisers not to compete, because he'd won four in a row and there was such hostility among the French public at the thought of a Belgian equalling Anquetil's record. And in 1975, on his way to winning five, he was punched in the kidneys by an outraged fan on one of the climbs. Having him win was, apparently, "boring" and bad for the race.
There's nothing especially predictable about this year's Tour.
There's nothing especially predictable about this year's Tour.
#9
Surly Girly
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
For me, the names at the top of the standings are not all that glamorous-have not even heard of some of them but admit I don't follow professional cycling that closely. However so far I think I've enjoyed watching this year even more than past few years. I think a lot of it is seeing the teamwork, strategy and individual skills. Today's stage was a good example. How the fella won had a lot to do with experience and strategy. Also the fact that some teammates being stronger on the climbs than the GC contenders is intriguing. Also the ruling at the finish line on one of the sprints. I hope the remaining stages continue to be interesting.
__________________
Specialized Roubaix Expert
Surly Long Haul Trucker
Specialized Roubaix Expert
Surly Long Haul Trucker
#10
Dharma Dog
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,073
Bikes: Rodriguez Shiftless street fixie with S&S couplers, Kuwahara tandem, Trek carbon, Dolan track
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
On the boring side, I admit that I often fall asleep during the TV coverage of the middle of the stage. Phil & Paul's droning voices, plus the standard race strategy (an early break takes off with nobody significant in it, the pack lets them go, then the Yellow Jersey or sprinter's teams start hauling it in at a rate of 1 minute per 10 km, day after day), plus it's just a bunch of guys pedaling bikes.
But it really is quite interesting when you can look beneath all that and see what's really going on. The five races within the race (this would be the competitions for the four jersey classifications plus the competition for the stage win). Seeing if anyone is having a bad day. Trying to figure out why someone is attacking at a certain time or place, or why one of the teams is rapidly accelerating. Watching plans not work or backfire (Sagan trying to bridge up to the break on the descent before the intermediate sprints and failing, or Cadel's beautifully set up break with Tejay, only to get gapped by TVG once the attack is made. The climbing stages are always interesting, as guys attack and other guys go off the back.
But I do think that the coverage on the flat stages could be reduced considerably, focusing on the intermediate sprint and the final 20 km to the bunch sprint at the end. Phil & Paul also get it wrong quite often, regarding what's going on. I find ex-US-based pro Scott Moninger's comments to be far more perceptive, but it does helpl to listen to the analysis to get a better understanding of what's happening; this gives a much greater appreciation and thereby less boredom.
The live reports on Velonews, where a number of knowledgeable guys are commenting on the action as it happens, is also a good source (much better than the rather static live reports on cyclingnews.com).
Like anything else, the more background knowledge you have, the more interesting it gets. But yeah, I still fall asleep during the long, flat sections where nothing is happening!
Luis
But it really is quite interesting when you can look beneath all that and see what's really going on. The five races within the race (this would be the competitions for the four jersey classifications plus the competition for the stage win). Seeing if anyone is having a bad day. Trying to figure out why someone is attacking at a certain time or place, or why one of the teams is rapidly accelerating. Watching plans not work or backfire (Sagan trying to bridge up to the break on the descent before the intermediate sprints and failing, or Cadel's beautifully set up break with Tejay, only to get gapped by TVG once the attack is made. The climbing stages are always interesting, as guys attack and other guys go off the back.
But I do think that the coverage on the flat stages could be reduced considerably, focusing on the intermediate sprint and the final 20 km to the bunch sprint at the end. Phil & Paul also get it wrong quite often, regarding what's going on. I find ex-US-based pro Scott Moninger's comments to be far more perceptive, but it does helpl to listen to the analysis to get a better understanding of what's happening; this gives a much greater appreciation and thereby less boredom.
The live reports on Velonews, where a number of knowledgeable guys are commenting on the action as it happens, is also a good source (much better than the rather static live reports on cyclingnews.com).
Like anything else, the more background knowledge you have, the more interesting it gets. But yeah, I still fall asleep during the long, flat sections where nothing is happening!
Luis
#11
Dharma Dog
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,073
Bikes: Rodriguez Shiftless street fixie with S&S couplers, Kuwahara tandem, Trek carbon, Dolan track
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Oh, and as well, Team SKy's task is to make the race as boring as possible. It's just the way good team tactics work when you're leading. It's up to the guys who are not leading to light it up!
Luis
Luis
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Correct. Evans was supposed to dominate more, he hasn't. BMC looks stronger on paper and is not on the hills. Sky is doing a MUCH better job then had been expected of them, reminds me of the old Postal and Discovery days. Wiggins is riding a boring race - on TV, but is doing exactly what he needs to do to win. Froome and Nibali are keeping the race interesting. Schleck looks lost without his brother - are we sure they aren't twins ?.
One observation I had after yesterday was how, as always, the top riders blow off the peloton when the hill gets steep. You wan't to know who will be high on GC next week ?, look at yesterdays stage.
One observation I had after yesterday was how, as always, the top riders blow off the peloton when the hill gets steep. You wan't to know who will be high on GC next week ?, look at yesterdays stage.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hollister, CA
Posts: 3,957
Bikes: Volagi, daVinci Joint Venture
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
Just the scenery is worth watching some of the coverage. I'm not much of a cycling fan, but you've got to appreciate the magnitude of the the individual efforts, the team efforts and the logistics. When all is said and done I'm going to wonder whether the winner is the best cyclist or just the best cyclist of the nine on a very strong team. Could the winner succeed on a middle-of-the-road team?
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I find I ride better and harder with less internal whining, after a few days of watching these guys. Especially on the hills. I can see how steep it is, I can see the suffering. I went up a local long hill Thurs, one I've done maybe 6 times this season. Prior I had maybe maintained 8-9mph. On Thurs I was steady at 11. I'm always thinking "I'm twice the age, 50% or more heavier and can do 2/3 the pace, but other then those small things, I'm the same".
#15
Senior Member
I've enjoyed watching the Brits revel in their glory, since they're no good at anything else, particularly football.
__________________
Momento mori, amor fati.
Momento mori, amor fati.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times
in
364 Posts
But it really is quite interesting when you can look beneath all that and see what's really going on. The five races within the race (this would be the competitions for the four jersey classifications plus the competition for the stage win). Seeing if anyone is having a bad day. Trying to figure out why someone is attacking at a certain time or place, or why one of the teams is rapidly accelerating. Watching plans not work or backfire (Sagan trying to bridge up to the break on the descent before the intermediate sprints and failing, or Cadel's beautifully set up break with Tejay, only to get gapped by TVG once the attack is made. The climbing stages are always interesting, as guys attack and other guys go off the back.
To me, baseball is the least interesting sport in the world. (I've never watched Cricket). It's like watching grass grow and some of the fields are artificial so there isn't even that. I've got friends, though, who LOVE baseball. They can not only plot every pitch but they complain there isn't enough time between pitches for them to think about all the various possibilities.
I guess that's why they have both chocolate and vanilla. I love watching the tour.
#17
Senior Member
When the peloton isn't all doped up, the 20-somethings dominate, as would be expected. They just recover better. Froome and Van Garderen would both be at the top if the strongest natural riders were the ones that got support.
But rumors of Wiggins doping still seem totally plausible at this point. He is riding with the same control exhibited by Armstrong. If you have an unnatural advantage, the smart guys don't try to show off (like Riccardo Ricco in 2008), they just control their team and win in a boring, ineluctable way.
In general, I think that doping is way down. It is the only explanation for the success of the French riders.
And rdtompki's point re team support is very good. Cavandish is scratching to stay at front in the sprint finishes without his lead out train.
But rumors of Wiggins doping still seem totally plausible at this point. He is riding with the same control exhibited by Armstrong. If you have an unnatural advantage, the smart guys don't try to show off (like Riccardo Ricco in 2008), they just control their team and win in a boring, ineluctable way.
In general, I think that doping is way down. It is the only explanation for the success of the French riders.
And rdtompki's point re team support is very good. Cavandish is scratching to stay at front in the sprint finishes without his lead out train.
#18
Senior Member
#19
Council of the Elders
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,759
Bikes: 1990 Schwinn Crosscut, 5 Lemonds
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
My thoughts exactly - every single word. And even if it seems a little boring at times, I always enjoy the virtual tour through France and seeing the old structures still standing since Medieval times. And it's comforting to learn that they too have days when their legs don't work as expected.
#20
Time for a change.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Posts: 19,913
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Heard a comment this morning and I think it sums up the TDF leaders completely.
Naming names but Wiggins could win--Froome could win---- but it is the team that will win. Without the members of the team working for them--Neither will win.
On the doping side- it is probably there somewhere. It is the same in every sport but at least cycling is taking steps to stop it. They catch the cheats- they take action against them and they advertise the fact that they have caught abd banned the Offenders. Taken a good few years to happen but any professional rider now knows that it is not worth taking drugs as if you do---You will be caught. Not possibly could be caught---YOU WILL BE CAUGHT
Naming names but Wiggins could win--Froome could win---- but it is the team that will win. Without the members of the team working for them--Neither will win.
On the doping side- it is probably there somewhere. It is the same in every sport but at least cycling is taking steps to stop it. They catch the cheats- they take action against them and they advertise the fact that they have caught abd banned the Offenders. Taken a good few years to happen but any professional rider now knows that it is not worth taking drugs as if you do---You will be caught. Not possibly could be caught---YOU WILL BE CAUGHT
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.
Spike Milligan
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.
Spike Milligan
#21
Banned.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 8,651
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Just the scenery is worth watching some of the coverage. I'm not much of a cycling fan, but you've got to appreciate the magnitude of the the individual efforts, the team efforts and the logistics. When all is said and done I'm going to wonder whether the winner is the best cyclist or just the best cyclist of the nine on a very strong team. Could the winner succeed on a middle-of-the-road team?
When the peloton isn't all doped up, the 20-somethings dominate, as would be expected. They just recover better. Froome and Van Garderen would both be at the top if the strongest natural riders were the ones that got support.
But rumors of Wiggins doping still seem totally plausible at this point. He is riding with the same control exhibited by Armstrong. If you have an unnatural advantage, the smart guys don't try to show off (like Riccardo Ricco in 2008), they just control their team and win in a boring, ineluctable way.
In general, I think that doping is way down. It is the only explanation for the success of the French riders.
And rdtompki's point re team support is very good. Cavandish is scratching to stay at front in the sprint finishes without his lead out train.
But rumors of Wiggins doping still seem totally plausible at this point. He is riding with the same control exhibited by Armstrong. If you have an unnatural advantage, the smart guys don't try to show off (like Riccardo Ricco in 2008), they just control their team and win in a boring, ineluctable way.
In general, I think that doping is way down. It is the only explanation for the success of the French riders.
And rdtompki's point re team support is very good. Cavandish is scratching to stay at front in the sprint finishes without his lead out train.
Who knows about doping? But Wiggins and Sky are dominating while climbing significantly slower than did Armstrong, Pantani, Ulrich. Even Kloden used to climb quicker than they are now. That may be a cause for optimism. And Wiggo's climbing style is largely the product of his physiology. He's a world-class time -triallist. What he is good at is putting out sustained power, and managing his effort so he can stay close to the red line, but not cross it, for the required time. What he can't do is the rapid accelerations of the true grimpeurs. So I don't think the way he climbs is in itself indicative of doping.
Finally, Cavendish's win on stage two was a classic example of how to win a sprint without being led out. Were it not for a pretty horrific crash that trashed his chances for two days (he was still pretty beaten up the following day) we might have been talking about him having won three stages already. Obviously a train would help - you could argue that one of its main advantages is to make crashes less likely.
This isn't true, I'm afraid. Doping moves on. I am optimistic that the use of EPO has been substantially reduced, but my guess is that the dopers are now concentrating not on boosting performance, but on enhancing recovery. To the best of my knowledge there is no test to detect micro dosing of human growth hormone, and I'd bet on that being the drug du jour.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 7,085
Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 87 Times
in
67 Posts
But overall the television coverage with the high definition quality is really a big improvement from say 3 years ago.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times
in
364 Posts
My theory is that Lance never failed a drug test because he only boosted his chemistry to the threshold of the test. If you do that, I could see how eating a hormone enhanced steak really could be enough to push you over the limit. The latest charge against Lance has to do with witnesses of the dopeing process rather than blood levels.
#25
Banned.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 8,651
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Besides, it may well not be in Froome's interests. He'd have to consider the quality of the support that would be available to him elsewhere. He's currently in the strongest, best funded team on the pro tour. And there are three GTs. If I were managing Sky I'd be letting Froome lead a team in this year's Vuelta or next year's Giro. He's only 27. He could pick up a GT or two if he's good enough, and then inherit the team leadership for the TdF from Wiggo maybe the year after next. That would be the smarter choice, IMO.