Lance plead to 2 and keep 5 TDF titles?
08-26-12, 08:45 PM
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Lance plead to 2 and keep 5 TDF titles?
08-26-12, 09:17 PM
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Not really, now the PR defending the asshats for doing what they did starts. Its going to be a lot of "oh well we would not take EVERYTHING! NO!! only this or that"
Last edited by rgilliam2004; 08-26-12 at 09:35 PM.
08-26-12, 09:21 PM
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The more time Travis Tygart spends with his mouth open, the more ridiculous he sounds.
Personally, I think the USADA is grasping at straws in trying to "save face" for not having caught a lot of people who subsequently admitted to doping. I think they would like to bring LA down to make up for that.
Whether Lance did or did not dope, I don't think that much of what happens from here on out is going to bring about big changes in how people feel about him. Most people I know who formed an opinion of him long ago for better or worse.
Personally, I think the USADA is grasping at straws in trying to "save face" for not having caught a lot of people who subsequently admitted to doping. I think they would like to bring LA down to make up for that.
Whether Lance did or did not dope, I don't think that much of what happens from here on out is going to bring about big changes in how people feel about him. Most people I know who formed an opinion of him long ago for better or worse.
08-26-12, 09:28 PM
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Well well! Is Tygart and USADA having regret's now?
Well to late. You ruined this man's career with your endless witch hunt and all that he accomplished. To late to have regrets about that! Lance turned the tables on you, and now you are the bad guy, so don't even begin to say, "well, Lance could have kept bla, bla, bla..." You are now the heavy Mr Tygart. You are the guy that ruined one of America's greatest athletes, so stop the regret crap and don't even begin to do damage control. It was all fun and games as long as Lance played along, but he's not playing anymore. He gave you the big bird, and you have no idea what to do now. He's done with you and you are left holding the bag.
Great job USADA, you've created a martyr....
Well to late. You ruined this man's career with your endless witch hunt and all that he accomplished. To late to have regrets about that! Lance turned the tables on you, and now you are the bad guy, so don't even begin to say, "well, Lance could have kept bla, bla, bla..." You are now the heavy Mr Tygart. You are the guy that ruined one of America's greatest athletes, so stop the regret crap and don't even begin to do damage control. It was all fun and games as long as Lance played along, but he's not playing anymore. He gave you the big bird, and you have no idea what to do now. He's done with you and you are left holding the bag.
Great job USADA, you've created a martyr....
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08-27-12, 04:19 AM
#5
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The more time Travis Tygart spends with his mouth open, the more ridiculous he sounds.
Personally, I think the USADA is grasping at straws in trying to "save face" for not having caught a lot of people who subsequently admitted to doping. I think they would like to bring LA down to make up for that.
Whether Lance did or did not dope, I don't think that much of what happens from here on out is going to bring about big changes in how people feel about him. Most people I know who formed an opinion of him long ago for better or worse.
Personally, I think the USADA is grasping at straws in trying to "save face" for not having caught a lot of people who subsequently admitted to doping. I think they would like to bring LA down to make up for that.
Whether Lance did or did not dope, I don't think that much of what happens from here on out is going to bring about big changes in how people feel about him. Most people I know who formed an opinion of him long ago for better or worse.
Which guys subsequently admitted to doping that the USADA didn't catch?
I'll start the list:
Jonathan Vaughters
08-27-12, 06:13 AM
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08-27-12, 06:15 AM
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I rode my bike long before Lance. But as an American who's TV networks large & small basically ignored cycling as a sport prior to LA's TdFs, there is no question that watching him race increased my knowledge and excitement for cycling as a sport. And as time went on and I have changed from someone being awestruck by LA's accomplishments to feeling that he likely doped but was still the best among a bunch of dopers.
But I think that USADA has really screwed this up from a PR standpoint. With the information that they say they have, they should have found some way to make the process of nailing Lance more open. Instead, they've allowed Lance to gain PR points by arguing that the "process" is unjust and taking the focus off of the rules that they say he broke. It does at times seem like USADA is afraid of having to go head-to-head with Lance (and his lawyers) in an open arbitration.
Then there is this whole thing about who is allowed to strip titles from a racer. My understanding was that USADA (or any country's anti-doping agency) would make the case and recommendation after which WADA and UCI would follow through. Whichever is correct, these groups would look much more authoritative if they just had the same story regarding their own processes in the matter.
But I think that USADA has really screwed this up from a PR standpoint. With the information that they say they have, they should have found some way to make the process of nailing Lance more open. Instead, they've allowed Lance to gain PR points by arguing that the "process" is unjust and taking the focus off of the rules that they say he broke. It does at times seem like USADA is afraid of having to go head-to-head with Lance (and his lawyers) in an open arbitration.
Then there is this whole thing about who is allowed to strip titles from a racer. My understanding was that USADA (or any country's anti-doping agency) would make the case and recommendation after which WADA and UCI would follow through. Whichever is correct, these groups would look much more authoritative if they just had the same story regarding their own processes in the matter.
08-27-12, 08:27 AM
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08-27-12, 08:50 AM
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This does seem like a stupid thing for Tygart to have said. But yeah, I think Lance doped, if only the USADA were at all savvy in how they had conducted themselves they would have come out of this affair smelling a lot nicer.
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08-27-12, 08:50 AM
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Travis Tygart sounds pretty rational and reasonable to me. And the USADA gets points for not dumping its case and evidence into the public domain, which seems to be the current fashion. On the otherhand, LA acts like an accused politican in denial...but I admit to not being a LA fanboy.
I like the theory LA walks away to preserve his denial and non-perjury record for his future political run, that seems the most likely post-script to me.
Take heart, you can vote for him as your political representative in the future...
I like the theory LA walks away to preserve his denial and non-perjury record for his future political run, that seems the most likely post-script to me.
Take heart, you can vote for him as your political representative in the future...
08-27-12, 09:01 AM
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Travis Tygart sounds pretty rational and reasonable to me. And the USADA gets points for not dumping its case and evidence into the public domain, which seems to be the current fashion. On the otherhand, LA acts like an accused politican in denial...but I admit to not being a LA fanboy.
I like the theory LA walks away to preserve his denial and non-perjury record for his future political run, that seems the most likely post-script to me.
Take heart, you can vote for him as your political representative in the future...
I like the theory LA walks away to preserve his denial and non-perjury record for his future political run, that seems the most likely post-script to me.
Take heart, you can vote for him as your political representative in the future...
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Last edited by CbadRider; 08-27-12 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Removed political comment
08-27-12, 10:03 AM
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Please keep political comments in the P&R forum. Thank you.
08-27-12, 10:29 AM
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If an agency starts with an idea taking PEDs is against the rules and those who are caught taking PEDs in violation of the
rules will be stripped of any victories gotten during the time in which they were using PEDs, why would an agency be
agreeable to allowing tainted victories to stand? The message USADA seems to me to be sending is: we know you cheated
1999-2003, but we'll go against our idea of punishing cheats in this case, if you’ll just admit that we are correct when we
say you cheated and used PEDs.
What would motivate an agency to go against its supposed mission of punishing so-called cheats, if the evidence is so "overwhelming"?
rules will be stripped of any victories gotten during the time in which they were using PEDs, why would an agency be
agreeable to allowing tainted victories to stand? The message USADA seems to me to be sending is: we know you cheated
1999-2003, but we'll go against our idea of punishing cheats in this case, if you’ll just admit that we are correct when we
say you cheated and used PEDs.
What would motivate an agency to go against its supposed mission of punishing so-called cheats, if the evidence is so "overwhelming"?
08-27-12, 10:32 AM
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Rummer has is that Travis Tygart wants to take Neil Armstrong moon landing away from him claiming he took drugs to help him land on the Moon . . (Humor)
08-27-12, 12:42 PM
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08-27-12, 12:54 PM
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If Armstrong had "come in and been truthful, then the evidence might have been that the statute (of limitations) should apply," Tygart says, adding that "would have been fine by us." Tygart confirmed that would have meant USADA stripping Armstrong of only two of his seven titles, in 2004 and '05.
/boggle
08-27-12, 01:06 PM
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Ask yourself this question. Why would a stand-up guy like Hincapie (supposedly) testify that LA doped, if he did not? And what was he doing hanging around the doping doctor Michelle Ferrari. Was Ferrari treating him for a cold?
LA has always tried to destroy anyone who accused him of doping. That is his MO. Do I totally support taking his titles away? No, but I have no doubt in my mind that he doped. That decade in cycling was just awful dope-wise, and to think LA won clean, well, that is baloney.
The only reason I don't support taking his titles away is because the next nine guys in the GC were probably doped to the gills too.
LA has always tried to destroy anyone who accused him of doping. That is his MO. Do I totally support taking his titles away? No, but I have no doubt in my mind that he doped. That decade in cycling was just awful dope-wise, and to think LA won clean, well, that is baloney.
The only reason I don't support taking his titles away is because the next nine guys in the GC were probably doped to the gills too.
08-27-12, 02:29 PM
#20
Banned
Motorsports, AHRA Drag racing has separate fuel type categories ,
if cycle racing had a purity tested, and an anything goes category.
Any guesses which way the Bikes and Parts engineering Company rivalries ,
and the sponsorship money would go ?
if cycle racing had a purity tested, and an anything goes category.
Any guesses which way the Bikes and Parts engineering Company rivalries ,
and the sponsorship money would go ?
08-27-12, 02:34 PM
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The funny thing to me is that taking his titles away essentially means nothing. Lance Armstrong wasn't going to win any more tours anyway.
If Lance Armstrong doped, he already knew he did when he won the races. He has lived very well and been happy with his success so that was never an issue. If they take them away, he still knows who finished riding over the line first and that many of those behind him doped too. If he was good with it then, he's good with it now.
If Lance Armstrong didn't dope, it's still not a huge deal either. He still isn't going to be riding in any major tours even if he was found innocent. He also knows that he finished first 7 times in the Tour de France (and other rides) and he did it over dopers.
Many, such as myself, consider him the 7 time winner whether he doped or not. Many others believe he didn't dope and is the winner.
The real thing that may bite him is if any lawsuits come about because of this. Would he be required to turn in prize monies, repay sponsers or endorsements. That is the only area where I would see this being an actual issue to Lance Armstrong. If there isn't a strong possibility of this affecting him much, then I'm sure he feels just fine where he is sitting and will keep living on in life.
One of the best things about this whole scenario is the backing that he has received towards Livestrong. They've been reporting some of the strongest turnout in donations so far.
If Lance Armstrong doped, he already knew he did when he won the races. He has lived very well and been happy with his success so that was never an issue. If they take them away, he still knows who finished riding over the line first and that many of those behind him doped too. If he was good with it then, he's good with it now.
If Lance Armstrong didn't dope, it's still not a huge deal either. He still isn't going to be riding in any major tours even if he was found innocent. He also knows that he finished first 7 times in the Tour de France (and other rides) and he did it over dopers.
Many, such as myself, consider him the 7 time winner whether he doped or not. Many others believe he didn't dope and is the winner.
The real thing that may bite him is if any lawsuits come about because of this. Would he be required to turn in prize monies, repay sponsers or endorsements. That is the only area where I would see this being an actual issue to Lance Armstrong. If there isn't a strong possibility of this affecting him much, then I'm sure he feels just fine where he is sitting and will keep living on in life.
One of the best things about this whole scenario is the backing that he has received towards Livestrong. They've been reporting some of the strongest turnout in donations so far.
08-27-12, 04:21 PM
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The USADA really needs to be quiet. That statement is confusing at best and at worst makes it look like blackmail or extortion.
Lance doped. I think it's safe to say Lance's ego is only surpassed by the size of the state he lives in.
With that said, don't ever underestimate Lance's willingness or ability to fight. He managed to play a ridiculously lousy hand out with rather little damage to his status.
And he forgets no slight. Remember that when he's a Senator from TX and funding for some obscure body gets cut and the USADA is closed.
Lance doped. I think it's safe to say Lance's ego is only surpassed by the size of the state he lives in.
With that said, don't ever underestimate Lance's willingness or ability to fight. He managed to play a ridiculously lousy hand out with rather little damage to his status.
And he forgets no slight. Remember that when he's a Senator from TX and funding for some obscure body gets cut and the USADA is closed.
08-27-12, 06:13 PM
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George is one of my favorite riders so my answer would be, if the rumors are to be believed, that he doped and didn't want to lie about it and got immunity.
08-27-12, 07:35 PM
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That is what I've heard too. George apparently (rumour) testified to the grand jury that he doped with LA. If you hire good lawyers, their job is to make sure you tell the truth in grand jury proceedings after you have been immunised. The grand jury was not about whether LA doped, it was whether he used USPS' money to procure PEDs. And I suspect the feds urned their files on doping to USADA