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  1. #26
    Senior Member Nick Bain's Avatar
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    Can a caucasian win a marathon anymore?

    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008.../27-marathons/
    Last edited by Nick Bain; 01-19-13 at 06:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    Nick, I don't necessarily like agreeing with you -- but your spot on.

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    No because Caucasian train plan does not contemplate exotic cats like cheetahs and lions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Bain View Post
    Can a caucasian win a marathon anymore?

  3. #28
    Senior Member Nick Bain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
    No because Caucasian train plan does not contemplate exotic cats like cheetahs and lions.
    ha ha ha.
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    Nick, I don't necessarily like agreeing with you -- but your spot on.

  4. #29
    Senior Member john gault's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    except that there are genetic differences among "human populations" or "human races."
    Yes, there are genetic differences among human populations, but they're very small (albeit they can create seemingly large differences), but those differences are very much in reach of us all, i.e. if any one population were to live under the same conditions that created another populations characteristics, they would change accordingly. And it's not just between "races", i.e., black, white, asian... within those "races" are genetic differences amoung populations that could set them more genetically different than that of another population of another "race". http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/journ...netic-odyssey/

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Bain View Post
    Can a caucasian win a marathon anymore?

    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008.../27-marathons/
    Probably not anytime soon http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentin...ould-all-care/

    Seems the East Africans have a lock on that and the West Africans have a lock on sprinting. A white person can beat an East African in a sprint and a West African in a distance run, we seem to be somewhat of a hybrid between the two, but I guess that doesn't help
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  5. #30
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    if any one population were to live under the same conditions that created another populations characteristics, they would change accordingly.
    So, if the Japanese had lived in Kenya, it would be the Japanese and not black Kenyans dominating world-class marathons?
    If that's what you mean, I don't buy that.
    When I asked Kidd directly whether his findings of genetic variability, which showed that blacks meant that Africans were most likely to show the most phenotypic variability in humans–the tallest and shortest, the fastest and slowest, the most intelligent and most ********–he laughed at first. "Wouldn’t that be mud in the eye for the bigots," he said, not eager to puncture the politically correct balloon. Finally, he turned more serious. "Genes are the blueprint and the blueprint is identifiable in local populations. No matter what the environmental influences, you can’t deviate too far from it."
    "I know that the American system is very sensitive to statements of black and white. But you cannot defy science. You cannot just say that day is night and night is day. These are facts. And I think it's to the advantage of the black athletes to be proud that God was on their side."
    -Gideon Ariel,
    Biomechanist, former Israeli Olympic athlete

    Check out chp 1 from Jon Entin's book, Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We Are Afraid to Talk About It .
    Here's an excerpt:
    . Imagine an alien visitor chancing upon a basketball arena on a wintry night. It sees a curious sight: most of the faces of the extended tree trunks scampering around the court are black; the crowd, on the other hand, is almost all white. This alien would see much the same racial division at football games, boxing matches, and at track meets and running races around the world....

    To the degree that it is a purely scientific debate, the evidence of black superiority in athletics is persuasive and decisively confirmed on the playing field...

    When willing to speak openly, black and white athletes freely acknowledge what we intuitively suspect. "Blacks—physically in many cases—are made better," says Carl Lewis, one of the best sprinters of all time, shrugging as if to say, "Does anyone really question that"...

    But such anecdotes alone cannot resolve this controversy. Lewis's belief that he is a breed apart can be seen as either an expression of black pride or a simplistic stereotype so powerful that even successful blacks have come to recite a racist party line...

    Even raising the subject of black athletic superiority brings angry rebukes from some quarters. William Rhoden, a distinguished African American columnist with the New York Times, derides it as "foolishness," a white "obsession," and an "unabashed racial feeding frenzy." Lurking in the background, suggests Rhoden, are racial stereotypes of black mental and moral inferiority...
    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    And it's not just between "races", i.e., black, white, asian... within those "races" are genetic differences amoung populations that could set them more genetically different than that of another population of another "race". http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/journ...netic-odyssey/
    If you're interested, read this too:
    MYTHS ABOUT HUMAN DIFFERENCES

    MYTH: The genetic variation among European, African and Asian populations is minuscule compared to differences between individuals within those populations.

    This factoid, which is a variation on the first myth, has been elevated to the level of revealed truth. According to Lewontin, "based on randomly chosen genetic differences, human races and populations are remarkably similar to each other, with the largest part by far of human variation being accounted for by the differences between individuals."

    What does that mean? Not much by today’s nuanced understanding of genetics, it turns out. Consider the cichlid fish found in Africa’s Lake Nyas. The chiclid, which has differentiated from one species to hundreds over a mere 11,500 years, "differ among themselves as much as do tigers and cows," noted Diamond. "Some graze on algae, others catch other fish, and still others variously crush snails, feed on plankton, catch insects, nibble the scales off other fish, or specialize in grabbing fish embryos from brooding mother fish." The kicker: these variations are the result of infinitesimal genetic differences–about 0.4 percent of their DNA studied.

    As retired University of California molecular biologist Vincent Sarich has noted, there are no clear differences at the level of genes between a wild wolf, a Labrador, a pit pull and a cocker spaniel, but there are certainly differences in gene frequencies and therefore biologically based functional differences between these within-species breeds.
    And thanks for posting the link to the video-clip; I'll check it out later
    Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 01-20-13 at 02:21 PM.

  6. #31
    Senior Member trescojones's Avatar
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    Tour de france winners tend to have a long femur compared to tibia, a higher than average proportion of slow twitch/red muscle fiber, a predisposition to large heart volume and lung stroke capacity among other general features.
    When elite 100m sprinters line up at the olympics, commentators often remark that they are predominantly of african heritage, and they seem to have opposite physiological features in these areas to elite road cyclists. That isnt to say that there aren't other sectors of populations with african heritage that can also produce large enough proportions of people with these features but who knows. Given the Kenyan Ethiopian, and north African history in track endurance events it does make me wonder, maybe a super rider is more likely to come from one of these places. Another essential in elite road cycling development seems to be access to big hills or mountains because they must play a developmental role. People evolved to have slightly different population features according to whatever their ancestors had to do to get food, and to make a sweeping generalization I'd say great cyclists mostly come from where there are mountains and a good power to weight ratio is required to get by. Black and white is often dominated by an american paradigm, people seem to be very touchy about caucasians actually being really good physiologically at anything. Its a spectrum anyway, in north africa people are closer to being like europeans, and caucasians broadly include middle eastern and north asian populations anyway.
    Last edited by trescojones; 01-21-13 at 06:02 AM.

  7. #32
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    what about a cambodian or fijian ?

  8. #33
    Senior Member trescojones's Avatar
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    I have worked with lots of Fijiians, a larger proportion of them tend to be bigger and have lots of strength/power. Imho there must be people within most phenotypes who could make great cyclists,(pick any spot where there are large mountains that people have inhabited for a very long time) but they need to have the right physiological features. Poverty probably has a lot to do with it too, training for cycling needs lots of time which perhaps a lot of folks around the world dont get access to.

  9. #34
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    Not being racist, but I say the first black tour winner comes from the U.S. No PED's either.

  10. #35
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    I think Major Taylor could have easily won the tdf had he been born a few years later. He was a sprint specialist as a professional, but he won a lot of road races as an amateur and really was on a entirely different level from other cyclists of the time. Of course he would never have competed in a grand tour since he refused to race on the Sabbath. And he's American, not African.

  11. #36
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Blacks from the U.S. can generally trace their roots back to Sub-Saharan west Africa.
    Not too many distance wold-class athletes can trace their roots to that part of the world.
    Those who can, tend to dominate sprinting events and sports that require "explosive" bursts of
    speed: 100m dash, soccer, football, etc. I doubt we'll ever see a U.S. black win or even top-ten at the TDF.

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    +1, even the french ones that have really good riders have road racers, but theirs trackers are just amazing riders.

    Some were saying about muscles and physiologic aspects of the guys but pretty much that is just BS, why??? Example... indurain and the Kaiser are just too big to climb, and the suckers climb like nobody probably even today and remember those two are time trialists not climbers. Then you have the opposite side, maxman... the guy to me looks like the usual road rider... small for the average of riders and he doesnt even look like a sprinter and there you have him... teo bos, theo bos is tall but athletic, he looks more like a road rider or a persuit guy, long legs, long muscles and there you have a 3 or 4 times sprinter world champion. You have zillions of examples of people that look like something and actually are good for other stuff specially in cycling.

    Dont take me wrong guys but so far today I have not seen a single black guy that can climb decently. For some reason they just sucks at climbing and they just get disconnected after 3 hours of riding (pop!-- off). Raced a couple of tours back in the day and for some idiotic reason the few blacks always sucked at climbing (in the track was another story tho), i dont climb and I was smoking them. And the few sunday warriors i have seen in the area aren't spectacular either even in flats, as i said before dont take me wrong ok? just using my ex racer eye to observe.

    So, for some reason witey no matter the country or shape will do ok with bicycles.. i'm part asian and objectively i can say that asians have the same issue than blacks, cant ride road bikes. I dont see an asian winning the TdF or any european great tour EVER even if they had a full time team working for them all the time.

    Arabs? no idea but the guy that was in the pro tour as pretty good.

    Hindi?? dont see a hindi winning in any sport but maybe cricket and programing java that they do like if it was a sport, not even think in going to the TdF someday, not making fun here ok... but seriously... anybody have seen an hindi guy riding a high end bike? and been thin like athletic? (always chubby) I apologize to who ever got offended ok? not making fun just making a point...

  13. #38
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Bain View Post
    Can a caucasian win a marathon anymore?
    Paula Radcliffe. London Marathon 2002, 2003, 2005. New York Marathon, 2004, 2007, 2008. Holds the women's world record, 2:15:25.

    FYI, 4th place in the 2012 Boston was Jason Hartman, who is caucasian. #9 was Hideaki Tamura from Japan.

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    Yes but those are just specific races... for example he got 74 in the half marathon world cups. As in every event sure depends a lot of who is going to the race and is not the same the world cup or the olympics marathon than the boston marathon eventhought is an important event. The guy is pretty good, 2 hours 15 mins time in marathon is super good time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

    There is only one whitey in that list and i doubt we will see that many more. IN cycling is just the opposite.

  15. #40
    Senior Member john gault's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Blacks from the U.S. can generally trace their roots back to Sub-Saharan west Africa.
    Not too many distance wold-class athletes can trace their roots to that part of the world.
    Those who can, tend to dominate sprinting events and sports that require "explosive" bursts of
    speed: 100m dash, soccer, football, etc. I doubt we'll ever see a U.S. black win or even top-ten at the TDF.
    That was my point earlier ("Seems the East Africans have a lock on that, marathons, and the West Africans have a lock on sprinting. A white person can beat an East African in a sprint and a West African in a distance run, we seem to be somewhat of a hybrid between the two...") and the point of my last link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentin...ould-all-care/


    If an African were to become a TDF contender, I'd think he'd be from East Africa. But the West Africans would probably make really good track cyclists. Generally speaking, white people seem to be more generalists, rather than specialists.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  16. #41
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    I dunno about just track
    Be cool to see a black cyclist winning Milan - San Remo or Ghent Wevelgem
    I could see that happening

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    I dont see that happening, as i said before... I dont even see an asian winning those races either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    I dunno about just track
    Be cool to see a black cyclist winning Milan - San Remo or Ghent Wevelgem
    I could see that happening

  18. #43
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    Until the philosophy which hold one race superior
    And another
    Inferior
    Is finally
    And permanently
    Discredited
    And abandoned .

    That until there no longer
    First class and second class citizens of any nation
    Until the colour of a man's skin
    Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes -


    That until the basic human rights
    Are equally guaranteed to all,
    Without regard to race -

    That until that day
    The dream of lasting peace,
    World citizenship
    Rule of international morality
    Will remain in but a fleeting illusion to be pursued,
    But never attained -
    "Are you finished and satisfied with the thread up to this point? If so, if you don't mind, I'm inclined to close it now, the quality posts have dwindled - it's circling the bowl now." BillyD

    I can't climb and do not sprint well so I over compensate with bad form and lack of endurance

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    In most aspects of scientific discourse, you generally tend to find conservatives on the wrong side of the issue, because they are the ones who wouldn't let inconvenient facts stand in the way of the dogma.

    Genetics is one rare example where it works the other way around. Liberals want it so badly for people to be equal that they prefer to overlook instances where they aren't.

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    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Until the philosophy which hold one race superior...
    This isn't about "race."

    The folk concept of race is deeply flawed, and shouldn't be used in this context. We're talking about genetic lineages (or ought to be).

    E.g. it isn't the case that "All sub-Saharan Africans are great distance runners," or "all East Africans are great distance runners," or even "all Kenyans are great distance runners." It's that members of specific tribes, such as (and primarily) the Kalenjin (~4.5 million), appear to have some sort of genetic advantage at specific sports.

    Contrary to popular presumptions, it is still possible to not be in one of those specific populations and still perform at nearly the same level. E.g. if you look at the NY Marathon, Men's 2011, 4 of the top 10 aren't of East African heritage -- 2 Moroccans, 1 Swiss, and 1 American. The #10 runner came in at 2:12:26, which is off the winning time by ~7 minutes, but is still extremely fast. And again, Paula Radcliffe, who is definitely not Kalenjin, is clearly one of the top women distance runners.

    Also, keep in mind that training, diet and technique aren't necessarily harmonized across all contestants. E.g. many Kenyans tend to consume very little water while running, and will end the race slightly dehydrated. The Kalenjin tend to land on the front of their feet, but many elite runners land on the heel. There's no solid evidence if a change in running form offers a performance advantage or reduces injury rates.

    And, of course, no one really knows what physiological or genetic profile makes up a truly great cycling stage racer. Surely any research done on "winners" from the past 20 years is now unusable.


    As such, I see no physiological or genetic reasons why someone who happens to have brown skin cannot possibly win a stage race or a grand tour at some future date. It's unlikely in the short term because of factors like participation rates, training, motivation, experience, culture, and racial discrimination.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    This isn't about "race."

    The folk concept of race is deeply flawed, and shouldn't be used in this context. We're talking about genetic lineages (or ought to be).

    E.g. it isn't the case that "All sub-Saharan Africans are great distance runners," or "all East Africans are great distance runners," or even "all Kenyans are great distance runners." It's that members of specific tribes, such as (and primarily) the Kalenjin (~4.5 million), appear to have some sort of genetic advantage at specific sports.

    Contrary to popular presumptions, it is still possible to not be in one of those specific populations and still perform at nearly the same level. E.g. if you look at the NY Marathon, Men's 2011, 4 of the top 10 aren't of East African heritage -- 2 Moroccans, 1 Swiss, and 1 American. The #10 runner came in at 2:12:26, which is off the winning time by ~7 minutes, but is still extremely fast. And again, Paula Radcliffe, who is definitely not Kalenjin, is clearly one of the top women distance runners.

    Also, keep in mind that training, diet and technique aren't necessarily harmonized across all contestants. E.g. many Kenyans tend to consume very little water while running, and will end the race slightly dehydrated. The Kalenjin tend to land on the front of their feet, but many elite runners land on the heel. There's no solid evidence if a change in running form offers a performance advantage or reduces injury rates.

    And, of course, no one really knows what physiological or genetic profile makes up a truly great cycling stage racer. Surely any research done on "winners" from the past 20 years is now unusable.


    As such, I see no physiological or genetic reasons why someone who happens to have brown skin cannot possibly win a stage race or a grand tour at some future date. It's unlikely in the short term because of factors like participation rates, training, motivation, experience, culture, and racial discrimination.
    Some like participation rate and culture can tend to reinforce eachother.

    The abilities that make an athlete good in one sport often serve well in another. Sometimes widely different sports. (There have been several guys from the UK, South Africa and countries that were part of the British Empire who excel in both Rugbuy and cricket).

    Put a person with the same base abilities in Africa and Belgium and it is not hard to guess which will end up a runner and which a cyclist.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  22. #47
    Senior Member trescojones's Avatar
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    world participation in the tdf and pro cycling is very much in its infancy imho, it looks as if it will expand . Its only in the last generation-25 years or so there were any teams at all from outside central western Europe. Cycling has to be seen as a worthwhile thing that leads somewhere in a society for this to happen. 20 years ago the majority of Australian society seemed to view competitive cycling, road in particular, as more a weird fringe sport for people who should grow up and get a car, and "lycra poofs" etc.
    Last edited by trescojones; 01-24-13 at 08:15 PM.

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    Senior Member john gault's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    This isn't about "race."

    The folk concept of race is deeply flawed, and shouldn't be used in this context. We're talking about genetic lineages (or ought to be).

    E.g. it isn't the case that "All sub-Saharan Africans are great distance runners," or "all East Africans are great distance runners," or even "all Kenyans are great distance runners." It's that members of specific tribes, such as (and primarily) the Kalenjin (~4.5 million), appear to have some sort of genetic advantage at specific sports.

    Contrary to popular presumptions, it is still possible to not be in one of those specific populations and still perform at nearly the same level. E.g. if you look at the NY Marathon, Men's 2011, 4 of the top 10 aren't of East African heritage -- 2 Moroccans, 1 Swiss, and 1 American. The #10 runner came in at 2:12:26, which is off the winning time by ~7 minutes, but is still extremely fast. And again, Paula Radcliffe, who is definitely not Kalenjin, is clearly one of the top women distance runners.

    Also, keep in mind that training, diet and technique aren't necessarily harmonized across all contestants. E.g. many Kenyans tend to consume very little water while running, and will end the race slightly dehydrated. The Kalenjin tend to land on the front of their feet, but many elite runners land on the heel. There's no solid evidence if a change in running form offers a performance advantage or reduces injury rates.

    And, of course, no one really knows what physiological or genetic profile makes up a truly great cycling stage racer. Surely any research done on "winners" from the past 20 years is now unusable.


    As such, I see no physiological or genetic reasons why someone who happens to have brown skin cannot possibly win a stage race or a grand tour at some future date. It's unlikely in the short term because of factors like participation rates, training, motivation, experience, culture, and racial discrimination.
    I agree. I don't know why some get so freaked out about this topic; as if those that look at this issue in a truthful way are some how condoning racial discrimination .

    And they say I'm sticking my head in the sand just because I'm a global warming denier
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  24. #49
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    I agree. I don't know why some get so freaked out about this topic....
    If improperly understood -- which is usually the case -- claims about genetic advantages in highly specific populations can sound like racist stereotypes. It's no surprise that people tip-toe around the idea.

  25. #50
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    I think they can win it someday alright. But if I were black I'd be a little insecure about roadside fan reaction whether I should be worried or not. That's considering fan reaction in soccer sometimes.

    This thread reminds me that I was going to read up more on Major Taylor pretty soon.

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