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  1. #26
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    That others used drugs or aren't the best people is really irrelevant to the fact that Armstrong lied, doped, and built a fortune along with icon status on a myth.

    The one that rises highest has the farthest to fall.

    No one cares about Frankie or Betsy. The repeated harping on whatever flaws they may or may not have is obfuscation. Armstrong burnt a lot of bridges along the way to stardom. Eventually his ego convinced him he was made of teflon. It proved not to be the case. Everything that's been said about him has proven to be true. Right now the battle for him is to preserve as much of his wealth as possible in the whistle blower suit, according to reports shield himself from fallout from IRS investigations in Livestrong, and find a way to rebuild his image so he can earn again.

  2. #27
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    You are, obviously. Accusations like "Lying, opportunist scum" are pretty clear.

    Beyond that, it's clear that you've formed your opinions without any real firsthand experience either with top-level bicycle racing or with the people you are attacking. Back when I was coaching LaGrangers, I went hoarse trying to get the professional cat. 4s to shut up and listen. I never met any group of people who held such firm opinions backed with so little information. Apparently that culture persists.
    LOL. Speaking as a clapped-out opinionated professional Cat4, I can confirm this. Most of us know absolutely everything except how to ride a bike very fast.

  3. #28
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    The more I read of them, the more I see that the Andreus are just opportunist scum.
    Yep!
    My current stable:

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  4. #29
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    No one cares about Frankie's or Betsy's lies.
    Corrected.
    A few have cared enough about them to interview them about Armstrong's lies, but what no one cares about are their lies.

  5. #30
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    You can continue to try and spin things any way you want. Fact remains Armstrong is in a heap of trouble, and he's brought it on himself.

  6. #31
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    It really is remarkable how many true believers there still are. For years, despite mounting evidence, Armstrong was innocent. Now that he has confessed, his guilt doesn't matter because everyone else is a schmuck. It's called confirmation bias. Only the evidence that supports one's prejudices is given any weight. The rest is brushed aside.

  7. #32
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    Well, apparently I care, anyway. From what I knew, Frankie was a pretty decent guy, and I don't much like seeing his name dragged through the mud by butt-hurt Lance fanboys.

    Here's the deal: most pro bike racers take drugs and buy/sell races. It's entertainment. Folks looking for heroes and role models should go somewhere else to find them.

  8. #33
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You can continue to try and spin things any way you want.
    Let's see we're posting in a thread that's about an article that uses Frankie as a source. People do care about the Andreus, that is, people care about what the Andreus say, so long as they mention Lance Armstrong -- they care so much that they have appeared on national TV (CNN). But no, **** all that: you're sticking to the "no one cares about them" and to say otherwise is "spin." Clearly, you're talking out of your ***. You just don't want to admit -- not even acknowledge that they might have lied (just a lil bit). it's clear that many here think lies are only relevant if the liar is an ass. However, if the liar is "decent," then his/her lie(s) are not even worth mentioning.

    What's disconcerting is none of the Andreu "fanboys" are saying, "hey you know, you're wrong; they didn't lie." What the fanboys are saying are things like: "spin" and "Armstrong is an a'hole and Frankie is a nice guy" and "I don't care if Frankie and Betsy lied, Lance is meanie and it's a fact that he's in big trouble now, so ha!"

    And if any name-dropping Frankie-fan boy is so hurt about his idol's name being drug through the mud, he should have talked his friend out of doping and lying about it. As Betsy said on national TV: "If he's not gonna tell the truth…then how are we to believe everything else he's saying?"
    Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 03-06-13 at 01:16 AM.

  9. #34
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Betsy didn't lie.

    There I said it.

    There's absolutely not an ounce of evidence she did.

    I also think you need to look up the definition of obfuscation. It's about the only thing you seem capable of doing on these forums. How or why you remain so firmly on Armstrong's dick is a thing of wonder. One can only assume some relationship to Livestrong or a collection of Armstrong posters on your wall. I'm not a Frankie fanboy. I couldn't give a yellow rat's ass about any of these people. They're all bags of ****. But Armstrong is the news story. Thus comes in the obfuscation. You'd like to make it about folks no one cares about. And by that what's meant is that in another couple of years no one will recall their names. This isn't a thread, forum or story about the Andreaus or any of the myriad other folks that Armstrong burned bridges with. It's about the rise and fall of the Armstrong myth, how and why he amassed a fortune, what was his down fall, and what will ultimately end up as his legacy.

    And yes, his ultimate downfall is that he was an ass hole. He cheated on his wife. He used and discarded people, and he cheated his sport. And while everyone cheated, he cheated bigger and better. He would have gotten away with it and had statues chipped of him but for two things. He was an an ass. And he thought he could do whatever he wanted, including mounting a comeback so he could make even more money. If not for those two flaws he'd remain a heroic figure in the eyes of history.

    So now we watch the hero fall, and wait and see how bad it gets for him.

    You're welcome to spend your time harping on the foibles or lives of bit players in this saga, but it doesn't change in any way the material facts of the case. Armstrong has admitted to the things he was accused of. And the government, through various agencies, is coming for their money. SCA as well.
    Last edited by gsteinb; 03-06-13 at 06:40 AM.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    ... How or why you remain so firmly on Armstrong's dick is a thing of wonder. ...

  11. #36
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Betsy didn't lie.
    There's absolutely not an ounce of evidence she did.
    How do you know she didn't lie? Never mind, we both know you have no idea if she did or did't lie.
    BTW, your unwavering belief in veracity of Betsy's story -- something you can not possibly know --
    is contrary to your hear felt "I'm not a Frankie fanboy" declaration.

    Now what is on record his Frankie's lie about him first using EPO in 1999. So, in order for her "I first found out
    about Frankie doping was in 1999" story to be true, Frankie would have had to keep his doping a secret from
    her for over 3 years, and then lie again about first taking EPO in 1999. Now, I'm sure to the Frankie Fanboys, it seems
    probable that he lied to Betsy in 1996, deceived her for nearly four years, and then lied again about just using EPO
    for the '99 TDF when she supposedly found his unused EPO in the 'fridge in 1999. However, to most others, I'm
    sure, it seems improbable Frankie would lie so many times and for so long to his wife (esp with what she has said
    about her feeling of truth and honesty). Ergo, there is some evidence that she may have lied. Is it conclusive? Of
    course not. But to say that she didn't lie and there isn't an ounce that she did smacks of fanboism.


    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You're welcome to spend your time harping on the foibles or lives of bit players in this saga, but it doesn't change in any way the material facts of the case.
    And you're welcome to keep your focus on Armstrong's phallus.
    That's what you're good at, and it seems to have given at least one member a rise.
    Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 03-07-13 at 02:24 PM.

  12. #37
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    FWIW you really suck at arguing on the internet.

    Repeatedly telling a middle age guy he's something isn't likely to actually make that be the case. Read: I'm not a fan of anything, really. Never mind human beings who are younger than me and who all have questionable morals. I have met Betsy. I like Betsy. I like that she is principled. I know, well, people who have been instrumental in breaking this story. If what we're after is some Cartesian level of epistemological certainty I'm happy to discuss with you the possibilities of what we can and can't know. Assuming that's not what we're after nothing has changed. Armstrong, hang on to your seat, has admitted to the major things he's been accused of. Yet you continue to cling to what minor players in the story might or might not have done. Shrug. Keep up the obfuscation. I'm tagging out though. Someone else can debate you for a while. I've lost interest.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    I was a big lance fan up until the end now he's dead to me. Even if you took the EPO/blood bags/ testosterone/pay-offs out of it. He is a bad selfish person. His PR machine of lawyers, industry contacts and private investigators destroyed anything that risked exposing him. Maintain innocence and demonize the person. Betsy fat, Emma's a *****, Griffith wags his weenie in public...
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  14. #39
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    I'm gonna hate myself in the morning, but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    How do you know she didn't lie?
    WHO CARES?

    Armstrong confessed. He doped. He did it. He admitted it. On ****ing Oprah. During every Tour de France victory of his career. It doesn't matter if he doped before 1999. There's almost a dozen witnesses, including Hincapie and Leipheimer, who concur. You will not pick their allegations apart one by one. The credibility of the allegations don't hang on the date Frankie told his wife about his doping activity. USADA will not be "exposed" as a pack of liars, whose charter will be revoked, because they believe Betsy's accusations.

    There is no "deeper truth" that can be revealed by slagging Betsy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    And if any name-dropping Frankie-fan boy is so hurt about his idol's name being drug through the mud, he should have talked his friend out of doping and lying about it. As Betsy said on national TV: "If he's not gonna tell the truth…then how are we to believe everything else he's saying?"
    You really are bringing back the memories. Not only did LaGrangers end my coaching career, but the experience resulted in me selling off all my bikes and ignoring the sport entirely for several years. I had to move out of the county before I could even think about bicycling without getting pissed off.

    And now, thanks to the miracle of the internet, I get to relive it all. Anyone want to buy some bicycles?

  16. #41
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    FWIW you really suck at arguing on the internet.

    Repeatedly telling a middle age guy he's something isn't likely to actually make that be the case. Read: I'm not a fan of anything, really. Never mind human beings who are younger than me and who all have questionable morals. I have met Betsy. I like Betsy. I like that she is principled. I know, well, people who have been instrumental in breaking this story. If what we're after is some Cartesian level of epistemological certainty I'm happy to discuss with you the possibilities of what we can and can't know. Assuming that's not what we're after nothing has changed. Armstrong, hang on to your seat, has admitted to the major things he's been accused of. Yet you continue to cling to what minor players in the story might or might not have done. Shrug. Keep up the obfuscation. I'm tagging out though. Someone else can debate you for a while. I've lost interest.
    First you wrongly say that no one care about the Andreus--when corrected you cry "spin."
    When pointed out you offer nothing more than "spin," you bring up Armstrong's dick.
    Now you're babbling on about you're expertise on internet arguing and being bored.
    You should have never tagged in.

  17. #42
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post

    WHO CARES?
    Not many, it would seem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    Armstrong confessed. He doped. He did it. He admitted it. On ****ing Oprah. During every Tour de France victory of his career. It doesn't matter if he doped before 1999. There's almost a dozen witnesses, including Hincapie and Leipheimer, who concur. You will not pick their allegations apart one by one.
    You're confused. I have not attemted to pick a part anyone's allegation, save for the "Armstrong pressured them to dope."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    The credibility of the allegations don't hang on the date Frankie told his wife about his doping activity.
    There is no "deeper truth" that can be revealed by slagging Betsy.
    Slagging Betsy? You mean questioning the veracity of statements made by her and her husband? Ok fine, you don't think it's important to know that Frankie lied when he admitted to doping, and then shielded the truth for years, likely with the help of Betsy, until put under oath. I happen to think that their lies speak directly to their credibility. Does that mean everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie? Of course not. But it does show that he, and most likely she, are willing to lie, tell partial truths in order to make Armstrong look like the villain and Frankie like the victim of "bullying." I'm not sure why you're bring up facts that I've never questioned. I know Armstrong doped and lied, just as I know Andreu doped and lied. But Armstrong doesn't have a nut running around crying & implying that he was pressured and bullied into doping by someone.

    ----

    I get it: You guys -- the ones who say you know Frankie (Six jours), the ones who care not if a witness lies, so long as they get Armstrong (Bacciaglupe), and the ones fascinated with Armstrong's dick (gsteinb) -- you'd rather the discussion just focus on what a rotten guy Armstrong is. Well, clearly that's not my focus. I'd rather focus on the entire picture: the credibility of all involved is important to me, and I'll say as much. If you don't like then STFU or at least keep the discussion on topic instead of musing about gentialia, how amazingly awesome you are at arguing on the 'net, posters of Armstrong, name dropping, or what a splendid cat 4 coach you were back in the day--or don't. Reading at some the stupid, self-serving, and off-topic dumb-**** you guys write is pretty entertaining too.
    Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 03-08-13 at 02:09 AM.

  18. #43
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
    You really are bringing back the memories. Not only did LaGrangers end my coaching career, but the experience resulted in me selling off all my bikes and ignoring the sport entirely for several years. I had to move out of the county before I could even think about bicycling without getting pissed off.

    And now, thanks to the miracle of the internet, I get to relive it all. Anyone want to buy some bicycles?
    I, like you, have no idea what you're blathering on about, so I'll say no more about it.

  19. #44
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    You're confused. I have not attemted to pick a part anyone's allegation, save for the "Armstrong pressured them to dope."
    I'm confused about why you're mounting an extended defense on a minor point, especially since there's a good chance Armstrong will eventually confess that the Andreus didn't lie.

    It also seems odd that for you, tearing down the Andreu's credibility and calling them liars about the hospital incident doesn't qualify as picking apart their allegations.


    Slagging Betsy? You mean questioning the veracity of statements made by her and her husband?
    Yes, that and calling her a "nut" in this thread. In other posts, you call her obsessed, crazed, wacky and deserved to be called an "ugly, obese, jealous, obsessed, hateful, crazed *****", in public.


    Ok fine, you don't think it's important to know that Frankie lied when he admitted to doping, and then shielded the truth for years, likely with the help of Betsy, until put under oath.
    It's not optimal, but that's how the world works.

    Lots of people in the sport have lied about doping; almost anyone who's going to go on record about it now has spent a lot of time lying about their actions, and the actions of others. E.g. Hincapie shielded the truth for years, with the help of fellow riders, until he was pressured by the feds. It's the same thing, so why aren't you ripping Hincapie to shreds?

    Meanwhile, Armstrong lied for years, and committed perjury under oath. And at this point, it's basically his word against the Andreus. By your standards, they are both lying, and thus neither should be treated as credible. But one of the two versions has to be true.


    I get it: You guys -- the ones who care not if a witness lies, so long as they get Armstrong (Bacciaglupe)....
    No, I have never said "it's OK to lie as long as you get the guy."

    I'm saying that the issues to which you attach so much importance simply aren't that important -- and they also tarnish the credibility of the other person who refutes their statements.

    Perhaps your process here is similar to Armstrong's:

    OW: This is what’s interesting to me: if a person is accusing you, and they say three things that are true but one of them is out of order and not true, do you then take that to mean the whole thing’s not true?
    LA: That’s it, you’re out. Yeah.
    OW: Yeah. That’s how you operate?
    LA: Well because that’s… Three to one wouldn’t be accurate I would… That’s a score.


    I'd rather focus on the entire picture....
    How, by focusing exclusively on a handful of claims, that don't really cut to the heart of the matter, and on that basis blasting the credibility of a couple of witnesses?

    Let's assume Armstrong didn't literally push anyone to dope. 1) He's still a raging **** 2) he still verbally and legally attacked those who were exposing or discussing his drug use 3) he still profited enormously from his cheating 4) he still cheated. He is still morally and possibly legally culpable for these actions, with or without accepting the Andreu's claims. That's the "entire picture."

  20. #45
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    Just a few notes in the interest of accuracy: I don't know Frankie Andreu. I knew him, slightly, way back in the day. He seemed like a decent guy. I'm not nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize or anything. I just know who I'd pick in a Lance vs. Frankie "personal character" debate.

    Also, I wasn't any good as a coach to the LaGrange cat. 4s and don't have accomplishments to brag about there. I despised them and secretly celebrated when they got doored on PCH - which happened all the time because they were dumbasses. Not like folks here haven't figured that out by now, of course.

    Anyway, I hope that clears up these vital issues!

  21. #46
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I'm confused about why you're mounting an extended defense on a minor point, especially since there's a good chance Armstrong will eventually confess that the Andreus didn't lie.
    To which minor point are you referring?

    If you think I believe or that I am under the impression that Frankie and Betsy lied about hearing Lance admit to using PEDs in 1996, you are mistaken. I never said or even hinted that I think they lied about that. To be clear, I do believe that occurred, and Lance all but admitted as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    Yes, that and calling her a "nut" in this thread. In other posts, you call her obsessed, crazed, wacky and deserved to be called an "ugly, obese, jealous, obsessed, hateful, crazed *****", in public.
    Well, she does come off as an obsessed nut. I mean Betsy, in David Walsh's book and in her USADA affidavit, has told of her online escapades of defending Kristen's (Lance's ex-wife) parenting practices. The story pretty much is of her perusing websites and responding to the opinions of strangers of how Kristin was going to care for her newborn. Not only that, she also reveals that she e-mailed a link to Kristin, so that Kristen could see for herself the disparaging remarks aimed at her and Betsy’s vitriolic cyber-defense. That along with her appearance on CNN--yeah, I'd say it's safe to say she's a bit of an obsessed nut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    Lots of people in the sport have lied about doping; almost anyone who's going to go on record about it now has spent a lot of time lying about their actions, and the actions of others.
    You're preaching to the choir. You're not telling anything I don't already know. However, I think you may be in the dark about a few things.

    In 2006, Frankie "came clean" in a NY Times article and admitted to using EPO in preparation for the 1999 TDF. His wife, quoted in the same article, blamed Lance for her husband's doping. But the thing is, Frankie pulled the wool over the NY Times and all who believed that he first used EPO in 1999. David Walsh, for example, was fooled into publishing Frankie's lie in his book. (I wrote another long ass post about it here.)

    What lie? The lie that Frankie reached his "breaking point" and "cracked" and finally began doping in 1999. We know Frankie lied in 2006 when he supposedly came clean about first using EPO in 1999, because in 2012, while under oath, he said he really first used EPO in 1996. David Millar, in his book, writes that in 1997, as a neo-pro on the Cofidis team, he witnessed Frankie inject himself with some substance, and that another teammate, who was also in the room, wondered aloud or in some other way questioned if such behavior was appropriate for Millar's virgin eyes, to which Frankie's response was something like: he's gonna see it sooner or later, he might as well get used to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    E.g. Hincapie shielded the truth for years, with the help of fellow riders, until he was pressured by the feds. It's the same thing, so why aren't you ripping Hincapie to shreds?
    It's not the same thing. I'm not ripping the Andreus for "shielding the truth." I am pointing out that they (I fully believe that Betsy was in on Frankie's deception) strategically lied in 2006 about Frankie supposedly first doping in 1999. They didn't just pick that year out of a hat, and one would have to have his/her head buried up his/her ass to not see why they chose 1999 and not 1996 as Frankie's first foray into doping.

    Unlike the Andreus, Hincapie hasn't waged a PR battle to blame, outright and passively, Armstrong for his doping. In his affidavit, Hincapie is very clear that he approached Armstrong for help in his quest to dope more effectively. The Andreus worked in a good-cop/bad-cop type of way. In their PR game, it was key for Frankie to lie about first using EPO in 1999, when he supposedly came clean to the NY Times. Betsy would then be on better ground when she went on to say that Frankie was pushed to first use dope in 1999 in order to help Armstrong win the TDF--it's kind of hard to sell the "my husband was forced to dope by mean ol' man Armstrong to help him win the TDF," if the truth is that Frankie had been doping since at least 1996 (and in 1997 when Lance was not even racing!).

    So it's not so much that he shielded the truth about his doping, it's that he has already lied once while under the guise of publically coming clean; it's about the Andreus being whiney lil *****es and blaming Armstrong for the choices that Frankie freely made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    How, by focusing exclusively on a handful of claims, that don't really cut to the heart of the matter, and on that basis blasting the credibility of a couple of witnesses?
    Actually, I think their lies do cut to the heart of the matter--the hypocrisy of all of this. Part of that hypocrisy includes the irony of the Andreus haranguing Armstrong for his dishonesty. Is Frankie any less of a bad guy or a raging **** than Armstrong for shamelessly knowing his lies would be published in Walsh's book and in a major newspaper? Perhaps he is less of a ****, but he's still a ****--a lying and hypocritical ****, who is still playing a PR game with his nut-ball wife. As far as my focus: look I stated my opinion, and since then I have only replied to posts directed at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    Let's assume Armstrong didn't literally push anyone to dope. 1) He's still a raging **** 2) he still verbally and legally attacked those who were exposing or discussing his drug use 3) he still profited enormously from his cheating 4) he still cheated. He is still morally and possibly legally culpable for these actions, with or without accepting the Andreu's claims. That's the "entire picture."
    1) So what if he's a raging ****? 2) Yeah he did. However, many of those who were targeted made money off his success and kept quiet with their knowledge while they were making money. I'm sure he saw them as I see them: disgruntle coworkers/co-conspirators. While I don't agree with his methods of handling them and their then accusations, I do think I understand why he acted as he did. The only ppl that come to mind that I feel were wronged are: Bassons & Simeoni. 3.) Agreed. 4.) While he did "cheat," I don't agree that that is the "entire picture."

  22. #47
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Here is an interview with Phil Anderson pertaining to the OPs subject:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-1...-bribe/4312558

    Almost halfway down the page is the interview with Anderson (God I've watching this guy since 1978). At 10:35 of the interview he is asked about this and he looks to me like he's blind-sided by the question and not sure how to answer it. I have to say he comes off as disingenuous.

    I realize that deals are commonly made in the peloton but this one involves cash over several races. I almost hate to post it because I like a lot of the guys riding for the Coors Light team back then and the man making the testimony claims that senior riders on that team were aware of the supposed deal. But I figure it's already out there and being talked about anyway.
    Last edited by Zinger; 03-24-13 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Just now read the OP

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