Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-12-13, 12:21 PM   #1
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 20,199
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Could Lemond have won five?

Until the erasure of Lance's record of TDF wins, this question didn't seem so significant. What difference would it have made if Lemond had won five? That would still have been second best. But now it is a bit different. If he hadn't been injured in the stupid hunting accident, could he have joined the other greats at the top of the TDF wins list with five? I am proposing that he could have filled in the two years he missed with two more wins. Why not more? After his last win, he seemed to be spent. That could have changed, too, if he had not been injured. We will never know.

I know what ifs make no sense. I just thought some discussion of what might have been could be fun. One other thing: Three wins under the circumstances was a damn fine performance. His time trial victory over Fignon is still the most thrilling moment in cycling I have ever seen.

Robert
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 12:53 PM   #2
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
That is impossible to answer.

To get at the heart of your question compare the palmares: Lemond, Armstrong.

Lemond has a decent palmares from top level European events that span the entire season and his entire career. LA has a few good results in Europe including a classics win but most of his results prior to 1999 are from NA races which is clearly a lesser accomplishment. Once he started focusing on the TdF that was pretty much all he rode outside of a few races in preparation for the TdF.

Look at Lemond in '86; He wins the TdF, is 4th in the Giro, 2nd in Milan San Remo as well as other results. In '89 he wins the TdF (including 3 stages) and his SECOND World Championship! He wins the TdF again in 1990 but also has a 2nd in '85 and a 3rd in ' 84 at the TdF as well and a solid palmares in other major European races throughout his career.

Lemond was politiced out of one TdF win and had a decent shot at another but the TdF is only one race. Combined with his other results, spread across a COMPLETE season he is, and has always been, the greatest American cyclist to date.

Edit: And oh yeah, all that stuff he said about LA, all that stuff that cost him so much, he was ****ing right all along.

Lemond ftw.
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook

Last edited by Bob Dopolina; 05-12-13 at 01:11 PM.
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:01 PM   #3
zonatandem
Senior Member
 
zonatandem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single
Posts: 10,858
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Always considered Greg a more rounded and better rider than LA.
zonatandem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:05 PM   #4
StephenH
Uber Goober
 
StephenH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dallas area, Texas
Bikes:
Posts: 11,250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
The question boils down to "If things were different, what would they be like?" So maybe if Lemond hadn't had a hunting accident, he would have been hit by a truck.
__________________
"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
StephenH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:06 PM   #5
DerHoggz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DerHoggz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:17 PM   #6
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerHoggz View Post
qft.
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:23 PM   #7
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,266
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
That is impossible to answer.

To get at the heart of your question compare the palmares: Lemond, Armstrong.

Lemond has a decent palmares from top level European events that span the entire season and his entire career. LA has a few good results in Europe including a classics win but most of his results prior to 1999 are from NA races which is clearly a lesser accomplishment. Once he started focusing on the TdF that was pretty much all he rode outside of a few races in preparation for the TdF.

Look at Lemond in '86; He wins the TdF, is 4th in the Giro, 2nd in Milan San Remo as well as other results. In '89 he wins the TdF (including 3 stages) and his SECOND World Championship! He wins the TdF again in 1990 but also has a 2nd in '85 and a 3rd in ' 84 at the TdF as well and a solid palmares in other major European races throughout his career.

Lemond was politiced out of one TdF win and had a decent shot at another but the TdF is only one race. Combined with his other results, spread across a COMPLETE season he is, and has always been, the greatest American cyclist to date.

Edit: And oh yeah, all that stuff he said about LA, all that stuff that cost him so much, he was ****ing right all along.

Lemond ftw.
Well put.

Historians are generally loath to consider what they call counterfactuals, that is, "what if Y had happened instead of X?" The fact of the matter is that X is what happened and picking one counterfactual out of what is essentially an infinite selection. What if Lemond had taken the crosstown bus on December 12, 1978 instead of getting a ride? What he had eaten broccoli instead of spinach on July 11, 1986? While asking what might have happened if the hunting accident hasn't happened might seem important, it's an arbitrary moment like any other. Everything we do has consequences.

If Lemond had been at the Tour and at full health in 87 and 88, he would have been the man to beat. But he WAS there in 85, and despite being probably the strongest rider, he didn't win it. It's just not a question you can answer.
grolby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:28 PM   #8
chasm54
Banned.
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Bikes:
Posts: 8,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If Merckx hadn't had a hideous crash early in his career, if he hadn't been asked not to contest the Tour because he was seen as too dominant, if Coppi's career hadn't been interrupted by WWII, if Hinault hadn't had bad knees, if I had only had more talent...

If my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle. So much for might-have-beens.
chasm54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:30 PM   #9
clausen
Senior Member
 
clausen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Northern Ontario
Bikes: Colnago Master XL, Bianchi Via Nirone 7, Marinoni Fango
Posts: 3,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If your looking at 'what if' you need to look at ALL 'what ifs'. Not just pick and choose. Around Armstrong there are many.
clausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:30 PM   #10
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Posts: 19,700
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by grolby View Post
If Lemond had been at the Tour and at full health in 87 and 88, he would have been the man to beat. But he WAS there in 85, and despite being probably the strongest rider, he didn't win it. It's just not a question you can answer.
Only because he was ordered to slow down & let Hinault win.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike
Homebrew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:30 PM   #11
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 20,199
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
It's just not a question you can answer.[/QUOTE]

Of course, but people never tire of talking about Ali vs. Marciano! I forgot about the screw job in '85. Lemond had a solid chance at 6. No we will never know, but I like considering it.
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:34 PM   #12
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
LeMond is simply one of the greatest cyclists of his generation. He is one of the greatest American cyclists and did a lot to promote it in the US.

LeMond could have done a lot of things. But a lot can happen in three weeks, so speculation is useless.

Suffice to say, he is one of those "once in a generation" talents that comes along and it was thrilling to watch him.
cruiserhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:37 PM   #13
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
It's funny to watch Americans rediscover Lemond after LA's lawyers are removed from the picture...
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:47 PM   #14
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 20,199
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
It's funny to watch Americans rediscover Lemond after LA's lawyers are removed from the picture...
Yes, we were duped. My problem with GL's complaints about LA was that he didn't seem to have evidence or corroboration. Under the circumstances it sounded like sour grapes. It was just hard to believe. Such was the power of LA's influence on the sport. Live and learn.
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:53 PM   #15
DerHoggz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Yes, we were duped. My problem with GL's complaints about LA was that he didn't seem to have evidence or corroboration. Under the circumstances it sounded like sour grapes. It was just hard to believe. Such was the power of LA's influence on the sport. Live and learn.
Simeoni, Bassons, L'Equipe...
DerHoggz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:57 PM   #16
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerHoggz View Post
Simeoni, Bassons, L'Equipe...
Jeebus, i guess you didn't have time to write the long list.
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 01:58 PM   #17
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
deleted because I'm too tired to explain.
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook

Last edited by Bob Dopolina; 05-12-13 at 02:03 PM.
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 02:03 PM   #18
BillyD
Super Moderator
 
BillyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Posts: 17,565
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Boys, I hate to do this, but this thread has to skidaddle off to Pro Cycling. However nobody is interrupting the conversation, please continue.
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
Titanium and Steel Divisions
BillyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 02:03 PM   #19
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 20,199
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
fify
Where else matters? Is that an American enough reply?
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 02:04 PM   #20
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Where else matters? Is that an American enough reply?
Spot on.
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 06:01 PM   #21
gc3 
Falls Downalot
 
gc3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: DC
Bikes: Now I Got Two
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yeah, he's def the american "man"...but who picked out this dizzy paint job that I had to ride around on for 5 years? I'm still blaming him for this...

__________________
"I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."
"I understand. I just don't care"
"I don't give a f*ck" if they remember me at all" (F. Zappa)
gc3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-13, 08:57 PM   #22
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,266
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Only because he was ordered to slow down & let Hinault win.
So? Politics is part of cycling. He obeyed orders. In '87, Roche's team told him to wait for his team leader at the Giro. He refused, and became the only rider not named Merckx to win the Giro, the Tour and the road race world championship in the same year. Lemond being the kind of rider who will do what his director tells him to do is relevant to the number of Tours he ended up winning. But Roche only ever had one season that good.
grolby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-13, 06:43 AM   #23
BillyD
Super Moderator
 
BillyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Posts: 17,565
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc3 View Post
...but who picked out this dizzy paint job that I had to ride around on for 5 years? I'm still blaming him for this...

I found a Lemond my size with a paint job like that once when I was bike shopping, and it's not easy finding my size (62, 63). I actually turned it down . . . could not see myself riding around with that paint scheme. I kept saying to myself "What were they thinking, what were they thinking?!"

And I love the Lemond ride and geometry. Still don't own one.
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
Titanium and Steel Divisions
BillyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-13, 07:15 AM   #24
Bob Dopolina 
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Posts: 9,968
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
I sold Lemond bikes for a while. They never did get the paint right.
__________________
BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook
Bob Dopolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-13, 07:47 AM   #25
squatchy
squatchy
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Denver
Bikes: S-works Roubaix, S-works Tarmac, Gary Fisher Promethius, Tommasini Competion, Eddy Merckx Corsa 01
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I like that paint job!!!
squatchy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:12 AM.