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  1. #51
    Walmart bike rider gpsblake's Avatar
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    Seems the Anglos are leading the fight to have a high profile women's race. But here are two concerns.. 1) would the "pretty" women be the one's highlighted like the Bob Roll commercials last year of "Do you want to go for a ride?" 2) would the Anglos be interested in names that aren't Anglo sounding (problem LPGA currently has).

    If race focused mostly on racing, instead of on looks, I would like to see it.

  2. #52
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    It seems that Marianne Vos and a few other riders are pushing for a women's tour. ASO is considering it, though they say it'll take more than a year to set it up.

    https://www.change.org/petitions/aso...tour-de-france

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aso-...tour-de-france
    Yeah I could sign that petition (in the first link).

    Anything to promote more athleticism and less obesity in the youngsters sounds good to me.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  3. #53
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    .
    UCI Presidential candidate Brian Cookson makes case for women’s cycling to become more mainstream

    That would include bringing back a version of the now defunct Tour Cycliste Feminin

    Here are some things he says in this article

    Excerpted in part:

    Cookson – who is also head of British Cycling – appeared more positive about the prospect of a major women's race and announced that a five-day international stage race will be held during next year's Tour of Britain. "It will be the first step in having a full equivalent Tour of Britain as it develops," he said.

    Yet he also appeared to distance himself from Harman's specific proposal, urging caution over any attempts simply to "mimic" the men's Tour and adding: "Women's teams that are bolted on to men's teams is not the only answer."

    "What I can do through my role in British Cycling and through the International Cycling Union is try to bring the parties together. That's what I'm trying to do at the moment – to get the people who have been organizing the petition together with the ASO, with my part of the UCI at the moment, and see what changes we need to make something like that feasible."
    Last edited by Zinger; 07-27-13 at 01:15 AM.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  4. #54
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
    Seems the Anglos are leading the fight to have a high profile women's race. But here are two concerns.. 1) would the "pretty" women be the one's highlighted like the Bob Roll commercials last year of "Do you want to go for a ride?" 2) would the Anglos be interested in names that aren't Anglo sounding (problem LPGA currently has).

    If race focused mostly on racing, instead of on looks, I would like to see it.
    If by Anglos you mean the British, as opposed to just the English-speaking nations, foreign names are not a problem. In general, coverage here is less insular than that in the States. When the Olympics are on, for example, we tend to get to see events that don't involve Brit athletes, whereas in the USA if no Americans are competing it sometimes seems as if the event doesn't exist

    The everyday sexism thing with regard to giving disproportionate attention to appearances is a problem everywhere. But in my experience, women's road racing is at least as animated as the men's sport. I was pleased to read Cookson's announcement of a female Tour of Britain next year and I'll certainly watch it - maybe even at the roadside.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  5. #55
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    But in my experience, women's road racing is at least as animated as the men's sport.
    Although I cant speak to your experience, I can to my experience. And women's road racing is nowhere near as action-packed as the men's road racing.

    Even in local crits, here in Southern California, the men's 1/2 fields have serious attacks right from the ***. Women's 1/2 you may get three serious attacks from the ***. Now that may be because there is such a disparity in the ratio of "seriously" fast racers to not so serious fast racers in the respective men's and women's elite categories, but still, the elite men's races are much faster, and they are much, much more animated (more frequent and faster attacks) than the elite women's races. I'm not saying I wouldn't watch elite women’s racing, but I'm unwilling to use falsities to get an outcome I think is socially right and/or an outcome I simply would like to see.

    Now maybe you really believe women's elite racing is every bit as animated as the men's elite racing, but if so, then I honestly believe your definition of "animated," in regards to elite racing, differs radically from my own, and from the overwhelming majority of pro-cycling spectators/fans.

  6. #56
    Senior Member eddiepliers's Avatar
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    I too would love watching the grand tours with women. I enjoy watching women's cycling more than women because of the empowerment and what they are fighting for in equal rights among athletics. I can't say that for every women's sport, the WNBA is a snorefest, but with Grinder in there to put some dunks in more often, it'll be more electrifying.

  7. #57
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Although I cant speak to your experience, I can to my experience. And women's road racing is nowhere near as action-packed as the men's road racing.

    Even in local crits, here in Southern California, the men's 1/2 fields have serious attacks right from the ***. Women's 1/2 you may get three serious attacks from the ***. Now that may be because there is such a disparity in the ratio of "seriously" fast racers to not so serious fast racers in the respective men's and women's elite categories, but still, the elite men's races are much faster, and they are much, much more animated (more frequent and faster attacks) than the elite women's races. I'm not saying I wouldn't watch elite women’s racing, but I'm unwilling to use falsities to get an outcome I think is socially right and/or an outcome I simply would like to see.

    Now maybe you really believe women's elite racing is every bit as animated as the men's elite racing, but if so, then I honestly believe your definition of "animated," in regards to elite racing, differs radically from my own, and from the overwhelming majority of pro-cycling spectators/fans.
    I'm not talking about local crits. there are too few women in the women's-only fields locally, which compromises the races. I'm talking about elite races in which they have sufficient numbers, at national and international level. There are plenty of attacks in those.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  8. #58
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    If they can drum up sponsors, more power to them. I don't think it will have a huge audience. Basically the women want a race that will lose money, but feel entitled. I live in a capitalist country though.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter584 View Post
    If they can drum up sponsors, more power to them. I don't think it will have a huge audience. Basically the women want a race that will lose money, but feel entitled. I live in a capitalist country though.
    I agree. I personally would watch a women's TDF (or any other). However, in this day of equal rights and empowerment, women will have to get out of the mind set of joining or being like the men and form their own leagues and associations and then promote them. If they are successful, great, if not, accept competing as amateurs and move on. Everybody can't have everything. I would like to have my own child, but I just CAN'T.

  10. #60
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    I'm not talking about local crits. there are too few women in the women's-only fields locally, which compromises the races. I'm talking about elite races in which they have sufficient numbers, at national and international level. There are plenty of attacks in those.
    Fine.
    However, women's elite racing isn't anywhere near as fast as elite men's racing.
    So then, if you find the slower (lower average power output) women's elite racing to be just as animated as elite men's racing,
    you might want to check-out 55+ master's racing. I think their speed is even slower than elite women's racing.

  11. #61
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Fine.
    However, women's elite racing isn't anywhere near as fast as elite men's racing.
    So then, if you find the slower (lower average power output) women's elite racing to be just as animated as elite men's racing,
    you might want to check-out 55+ master's racing. I think their speed is even slower than elite women's racing.
    Speaking as a 55+ masters racer, I know how fast/slow they are. They're a lot faster than you might imagine.

    All this "women's racing is less exciting because they are slower" is simply macho BS, in my opinion. It is not the average speed, but the interplay between the racers, that makes for an entertaining race. If you don't know the difference between an animated race, and a merely fast one, there's not much point in continuing the discussion.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  12. #62
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    Speaking as a 55+ masters racer, I know how fast/slow they are. They're a lot faster than you might imagine.
    Doubtful.

    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    All this "women's racing is less exciting because they are slower" is simply macho BS, in my opinion. It is not the average speed, but the interplay between the racers, that makes for an entertaining race. If you don't know the difference between an animated race, and a merely fast one, there's not much point in continuing the discussion.
    So, for you, the average as well as top speed of a race is of no consequence to its excitement, and also does not factor into to the entertainment value of a race? It's just macho bs?

    Of course speed plays a role, a very important one, in animating a race; to say otherwise is simply to shovel politically correct BS. It is racing we are talking about, after all. As far as the more subjective "interplay" between racers as a necessary condition of animating a race: of course attacks and counter attacks play an important part in animating a race. And again, I cant speak to your experience with pro women's racing, but my general experience is that attacks (and obviously counter attacks) are less frequent and slower in the pro-women's field than in the pro-men's field (hell, pro women are very often less "animated"/slower than the elite amateur men.

    But yes, why should you continue the discussion? After all, you seem to think calling for speed in a race is merely calling for macho BS. You feel that interplay -- which obviously diverges from speed, in your mind --is all that matters, and it is there where the pro women and pro men are equal. Of course, the ferocity of or faster speed of the attacks in a race is of no consequence to you, as faster average speed is simply macho BS.
    Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 07-29-13 at 02:49 AM.

  13. #63
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    (I made a mistake and typed a phrase into the beginning of this sentence that is arrogant) I am not a fan of the sport of bicycling; but as a very serious fan (campaigner for sports issues and former athlete, coach, referee and sports radio host) and what is right and fair (campaigner for such issues), I say NO. Instead, bicycling world (along with all of sports world, when Females have reached truly able to compete with Males evolution) MUST allow the sexes to compete against each other, in all events and Etc.
    Last edited by GreatWhiteShark; 09-29-13 at 06:14 PM. Reason: (I made a mistake and typed a phrase into the beginning of this sentence that is arrogant)

  14. #64
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    You're giving information that could be used to identify and locate you.
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  15. #65
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Doubtful.
    Of course speed plays a role, a very important one, in animating a race; to say otherwise is simply to shovel politically correct BS. It is racing we are talking about, after all. As far as the more subjective "interplay" between racers as a necessary condition of animating a race: of course attacks and counter attacks play an important part in animating a race. And again, I cant speak to your experience with pro women's racing, but my general experience is that attacks (and obviously counter attacks) are less frequent and slower in the pro-women's field than in the pro-men's field (hell, pro women are very often less "animated"/slower than the elite amateur men.

    But yes, why should you continue the discussion? After all, you seem to think calling for speed in a race is merely calling for macho BS. You feel that interplay -- which obviously diverges from speed, in your mind --is all that matters, and it is there where the pro women and pro men are equal. Of course, the ferocity of or faster speed of the attacks in a race is of no consequence to you, as faster average speed is simply macho BS.
    Totally. Except, of course, that it has been well demonstrated that attacking is a good way to make your overall time SLOWER (see below).

    If speed is what make racing exciting, and not the interplay between racers, then time trials would be exciting and mass start races boring. Of course, that is total nonsense. You yourself keep talking about attacks as what makes a race animated. But if racing is all about going fast, then attacks are counter-productive. So, tell me, which is more exciting, time trials or mass start racing? To raise the question is to answer it - time trials boring to watch. I like racing them, but spectating? Please.

    To push the absurdity of your position further, the slowest speeds are on the steepest hills - but mountain stages are the boring ones, right, not like the exciting time trials? Why is it that cyclists know about Passo Stelvio, Alpe d'Huez, Angliru, and put these climbs on their bucket lists? Because it is so boring, I suppose. Anybody able to name a time trial course off the top of their heads? Anyone? No-one?

    PS http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/t...3#.UkhVhj8qPaE

    A related paper from Foster and de Koning in the same issue looked at the effect of such hard breakaway efforts on subsequent time trialing and also your perception of exercise. In brief:

    • Trained cyclists rode 2 10 km time trials (with additional familiarization trials). The first 4 km was controlled at a set pace for both trials.

    • Cyclist had full feedback on power output, speed, and distance.

    • One was a typical self-paced time trial effort from 4-10 km.

    • One was a BURST condition, where at 4-5 km, the cyclists were told to hammer as hard as possible, with the idea of “breaking away,” followed by the final 5 km as a continued time trial.

    The results highlight how physically and mentally taxing the effort of breaking away can be. In BURST, the 4-5 km power output was much higher (282 W) compared to CONTROL (240 W).

    The BURST was in some senses a painful bust, however:

    • After the BURST at 4-5 km, PO dropped from 282 down to 220W, remaining below CONTROL values until 9 km.

    • Ratings of perceived exertion (RPE) were obviously much higher during the 1 km BURST (9 on a 10 point scale) than the rest of the BURST TT and also throughout the CONTROL TT.

    • Interestingly, RPE increased steadily over the 10 km TT in both conditions. But despite similar RPEs except over that 1-km BURST, the lower PO in the BURST condition showed that the cyclists never recovered physically, and also struggled to recover mentally from that break effort.

    • TT times were much faster for CONTROL (16:36 min) than BURST (17:00 min).

  16. #66
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhiteShark View Post
    As I have posted before, I am not a fan of the sport of bicycling; but as a very serious fan (campaigner for sports issues and former athlete, coach, referee and sports radio host) and what is right and fair (campaigner for such issues)...
    Hilarious. Especially, being a campaigner for "what is right and fair". Must be tough, since "wrong and unfair" is what people like to throw their support behind. lol.

    Just in case you have not caught it yet, it is absurd, arrogant, and shows breathtaking blindness of the world around you, because "what is right and fair" is what people campaigning on any side of any issue say they represent - the question is, how do we define "right and fair". That is a question with a meaningful answer.

    Saying "I am campaigning for right and fair" is an empty phrase, with no meaning - all you are saying is "I think I am right". Guess what muffin, so does everybody else on the planet.

    Brag fail.

  17. #67
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    I would cast a vote for sexy outfits. Women bike racers are really hot anyway, if the colors and patterns were well designed it would be a 30 mph catwalk.
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  18. #68
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Totally. Except, of course, that it has been well demonstrated that attacking is a good way to make your overall time SLOWER (see below).
    Of course, it has also been well documented that attacking is a good way to INCREASE the overall speed of a road race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    If speed is what make racing exciting, and not the interplay between racers, then time trials would be exciting and mass start races boring. Of course, that is total nonsense.
    If speed makes racing exciting...? Wait, are you suggesting that speed isn't a crucial factor in making a road race exciting? If not, that why write "if"?
    Also, please quote where I wrote that the interplay between racers isn't what makes a race exiting. You won't, because I wrote the exact opposite. Why you'd even write this nonsense is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    You yourself keep talking about attacks as what makes a race animated. But if racing is all about going fast, then attacks are counter-productive.
    Well, that is true; me myself keep talking about attacks. Again, quote where I wrote that "racing is all about going fast." But you won't, because you yourself like to make up opinions, then imply that I made them, and finally argue against the opinions you yourself made up. Furthermore, attacks aren't always "counter-productive."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    To push the absurdity of your position further, the slowest speeds are on the steepest hills - but mountain stages are the boring ones, right, not like the exciting time trials? Why is it that cyclists know about Passo Stelvio, Alpe d'Huez, Angliru, and put these climbs on their bucket lists? Because it is so boring, I suppose. Anybody able to name a time trial course off the top of their heads? Anyone? No-one?

    PS http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/t...3#.UkhVhj8qPaE
    Just like you, I'm not sure what you're babbling on about here, but races, among other things, are a measure of speed. Ergo speed is of paramount importance in the outcome of a race, to say otherwise is stupid as ****.

  19. #69
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    If speed makes racing exciting...? Wait, are you suggesting that speed isn't a crucial factor in making a road race exciting? If not, that why write "if"?
    Also, please quote where I wrote that the interplay between racers isn't what makes a race exiting. You won't, because I wrote the exact opposite. Why you'd even write this nonsense is beyond me.
    Memory and reading comprehension not up to snuff, eh? Read posts #60 and #61 . You said that speed is what counts, and chasm54 was pointing out that it was macho BS (which it is), the interplay is what is interesting to watch, and then you called it politically correct BS (that speed is less important than interplay).

    Also, chasm54 is much wiser than I am, there really is no point in continuing this discussion with you. My time is better spent looking up womens' races on YouTube.

  20. #70
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Memory and reading comprehension not up to snuff, eh? Read posts #60 and #61 . You said that speed is what counts, and chasm54 was pointing out that it was macho BS (which it is), the interplay is what is interesting to watch, and then you called it politically correct BS (that speed is less important than interplay).
    There you go making up quotes, again. Quote where I said "speed is what counts." But again you won't, because I never wrote that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Also, chasm54 is much wiser than I am
    If so, he's not the only one.

  21. #71
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    There you go making up quotes, again. Quote where I said "speed is what counts." But again you won't, because I never wrote that.If so, he's not the only one.
    lol if reading post 60 is not enough, nothing will be.

  22. #72
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    You're right, I just made it up and cant quote what you didn't write.
    So I'll just type out "lol" thereby claiming an e-victory!
    Got it.

  23. #73
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    jyl,

    Really? I did not know the female racers where sexy; most female athletes have that un-sexy to me athletic bodies.

    For me to watch and take any sports serious it has to move beyond just making me attracted to the female participants (players, cheerleaders, fans, broadcasters and Etc.).

  24. #74
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Memory and reading comprehension not up to snuff, eh? Read posts #60 and #61 . You said that speed is what counts, and chasm54 was pointing out that it was macho BS (which it is), the interplay is what is interesting to watch, and then you called it politically correct BS (that speed is less important than interplay).

    Also, chasm54 is much wiser than I am, there really is no point in continuing this discussion with you. My time is better spent looking up womens' races on YouTube.
    I think I'm closer to your camp.

    Now speed is important. But only that they are going fast. IF top elite women's riders were slower than a decent local racer then there starts to be a problem. If they were slower than a good recreational rider there is a big problem.

    They are not.

    I think a huge part is the contest. That the outcome is in doubt and that the reasonable differences matter to the viewer. I think women's racing may have a problem there, that a handful may dominate. But if it is even a handful and the money is distributed evenly enough that those are on different teams it could be exciting.

    If one team has the deep pockets and 5 of the top 10 riders are on that one team then women's racing will die quickly.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

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