Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,628
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Theory - Will TDF winners become younger in a cleaner peleton?

    I have a question that I would like some of your guys opinion on. Do you think with reduced EPO and blood doping use that TDF winners will be more likely those who can recover well as opposed to those with tactical experience. Thus, over time we should see the mean age of winners go down a few years. With blood doping and EPO the older more experienced guys could more easily hang with the strongest and use a more tactical approach to winning. This is becoming less so.

    Also, any strong theories on SKY's significantly better methods for getting guys in top form in the last couple of years. They probably have the biggest budget of the teams. But other than being able to hire the most intelligent training designers. What is the ingredient to their success. Froome has gone from just being good to superman. Wiggins had gone from being good for several years to a whole other level. Is it that they have finally gotten to know what is required to get into that kind of condition. Also, this buddy training system may indeed have some high value as opposed to those who train alone or in a group most of the time.

  2. #2
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    My Bikes
    Rivendell Roadeo, Rivendell Sam Hillborne.
    Posts
    1,672
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hezz View Post
    I have a question that I would like some of your guys opinion on. Do you think with reduced EPO and blood doping use that TDF winners will be more likely those who can recover well as opposed to those with tactical experience. Thus, over time we should see the mean age of winners go down a few years. With blood doping and EPO the older more experienced guys could more easily hang with the strongest and use a more tactical approach to winning. This is becoming less so.

    Also, any strong theories on SKY's significantly better methods for getting guys in top form in the last couple of years. They probably have the biggest budget of the teams. But other than being able to hire the most intelligent training designers. What is the ingredient to their success. Froome has gone from just being good to superman. Wiggins had gone from being good for several years to a whole other level. Is it that they have finally gotten to know what is required to get into that kind of condition. Also, this buddy training system may indeed have some high value as opposed to those who train alone or in a group most of the time.
    I don't know...in my club the fastest guys seem to be the older guys. I think cycling is just one of those sports that you get better at the more you do. I'm not saying that some 60 year old is going to do the tour, just saying that the kind of race the tour is might favor someone who has many more miles on his legs...and of course there is the experience to know when to attack, when to fall back and conserve ect that comes with experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Rivendells do not rock; they jamboree.

  3. #3
    GATC
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    south Puget Sound
    Posts
    6,551
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hezz View Post
    I have a question that I would like some of your guys opinion on. Do you think with reduced EPO and blood doping use that TDF winners will be more likely those who can recover well as opposed to those with tactical experience.
    I think overall endurance conditioning peaks in late 20s/early 30s, and it is probably reduced ability to recover day-to-day that moves somebody past that peak further into their 30s.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    440
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Even before EPO, cyclists used to get into nearly their mid-20s before even turning pro. The best young rider jersey is for u25s; not a lot of other sports (golf... ummm...) would consider a 25 year old a rookie. For example, a particularly talented athlete could theoretically have a full, very successful pro tennis career, quit, take up cycling, and have a full, very successful career in that too. He'd be a small tennis player/big cyclist though.

  5. #5
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Spokane WA
    My Bikes
    '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
    Posts
    1,848
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Agree with other posters that development to this level of the sport takes some time just like it always has.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  6. #6
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,605
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Merckx did not Ride the TDF until he considered himself read for the biggest stage.

    From before to well after Merckx all but the very best riders were expected to put in their time a support rider in the tours before being a supported rider.

    Felice Gimondi (Perhaps the most overlooked great rider of all time) was pushed into riding the TDF before he felt he was ready and insisted on a contract for the following year before he would take the position to team leader. He won. Good thing for him. A couple of years later winning became much more difficult.

    I think this has reversed. riders are now eager for a shot and many try as team leaders before fully ready. Some like Gimondi will get lucky. I doubt many will get twice Lucky like Gimondi. (The second is that if he had waited until ready he might well have waited until Eddy was riding the Tour).
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  7. #7
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Uncertain
    Posts
    6,271
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Two things. First, with or without EPO most top cyclists aren't at their peak until their mid-twenties or beyond.

    Second, Sky aren't miracle-workers. Wiggins was a multiple Olympic champion at the pursuit. That takes a massive engine. What is unusual is the dedication involved in shedding muscle from an Olympic champions frame to such an extent that his W/KG became adequate for him to be very competitive in the mountains. That's as much about him as about Sky.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,628
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks guys for your thoughts. They are very good. I wonder if Wiggins' has destroyed himself physically to get were he got in 2012. He seems now unmotivated to train at the level that was required to get to that 2012 fitness level. I know some of that is his personality. I wonder if Froome will want to live the same "Monk" existence next year now that he is getting married.

  9. #9
    BF Avatar Zombie Hunter Jseis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    SW Washington state
    My Bikes
    1973 Motobecane Grand Jubilee, 1981 Centurion Super LeMans, 2010 Gary Fisher Wahoo, '03 Colnago Dream Lux, several older family Treks
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My theory is that sprinting aside, cardio and efficiency of a team wins the day. I find it fascinating that Froome's cadence, Osymetric chain wheel, use of Porte & team, cardio warm up and cool down?, psychology? success at TT and climbing, all point to taking advantage of cardio, weight (and natural gift) and adding fractions of improvement which amounts to 8/10,000ths of a margin of victory....4+ minutes over 5,036 minutes. That's insane 8/10,000ths? And that's considered a "crushing margin of victory". Maybe it's pain management.
    Amerika, Land of the Very Brief.

  10. #10
    OM boy cyclezen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Goleta CA
    My Bikes
    a bunch
    Posts
    3,005
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    dependz
    Jacques Anquetil was 23 when he won his 1st TDF, then skipped until 27, from that point he won 4 more
    Eddy M had just turned 24 when he won his first and then racked up 4 in a row. All his major winnings happened thru 31 yrs old; he retired at 32.
    I believe Greg Lemond had just turned 25 when he won his first. Hinault won his first at 23.
    The Youngest TDF winner was 19.
    it dependz on the rider...
    Golden rose, the color of the dream I had
    Not too long ago
    A misty blue and the lillac too
    A never to grow old

  11. #11
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Spokane WA
    My Bikes
    '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
    Posts
    1,848
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
    dependz
    Jacques Anquetil was 23 when he won his 1st TDF, then skipped until 27, from that point he won 4 more
    Eddy M had just turned 24 when he won his first and then racked up 4 in a row. All his major winnings happened thru 31 yrs old; he retired at 32.
    I believe Greg Lemond had just turned 25 when he won his first. Hinault won his first at 23.
    The Youngest TDF winner was 19.
    it dependz on the rider...
    Also depends on what you call young. Lemond was also pressing John Howard when he was just 16, coming in 4th in the '79 Red Zinger Classic when he was 17 and winning the '81 then-Coors Classic when he was 19. None of those races were the TDF.

    And Henri Cornet, the 19 year old, won the second one in 1904. Somehow I'm not seeing anybody contemporary do that again.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  12. #12
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Spokane WA
    My Bikes
    '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
    Posts
    1,848
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hezz View Post
    Thanks guys for your thoughts. They are very good. I wonder if Wiggins' has destroyed himself physically to get were he got in 2012. He seems now unmotivated to train at the level that was required to get to that 2012 fitness level. I know some of that is his personality. I wonder if Froome will want to live the same "Monk" existence next year now that he is getting married.
    Wiggins has been down from illness more than anything, imo.
    He struggled in the Tour of Poland and is skipping the Vuelta

    Illness happens.
    And if Froome's success is based on abstinence here's hoping for a distracting and debilitating hot romance for him
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    379
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it changes nothing. From Wikipedia: "Firmin Lambot is the oldest winner, having been 36 years, 4 months old when he won in 1922", "Henri Cornet is the youngest winner; he won in 1904, just short of his 20th birthday". That's a narrow range and those examples are extreme. Tactical skill and bike handling will still be more valuable in the Giro, a strong team and high tolerance to oxygen deprivation will still be required to win the Tour, and pure climbers will still do well in the Vuelta.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •