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  1. #1
    squatchy
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    Sagans star doesn't shine so bright this year

    What's up?

    So ya he won the jersey but it didn't seem like he had the goods this year at the line. Do you think riding for the intermediate
    points keep him from having the juice at the end?

    It doesn't seem right that a guy is given best sprinter when he can't beat out at the finish line.

    Reminds me of all the years Shaq won NBA MVP and the guy couldn't pass,run, or shoot. Go figure

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    I was thinking about this earlier and this was my take: Kittel added to the already tough field of sprinters. Sagan came in 2nd or 3rd this year a lot, Kittel won a lot. If you were to remove him from the race Sagan probably would have done better. Last year, it seemed like it was Cav, Sagan, Griepel with Goss chasing. This year it seemed it was Kittel, Cav, Griepel and Sagan chasing.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Giacomo 1's Avatar
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    I never really thought of Sagan as a pure sprinter like Cav is. He is missing that kind if speed at the line, but the green jersey is given for the rider who is the most consistent sprinter, not always the fastest. Sagan's strength lies in his ability to get over the hills and mountains to catch the middle sprint points while the other sprinters are dying over the mountains. That's how you win the green jersey.

    With the sprinters field growing like it is, it's going to be tough for Sagan to win many more pure sprints IMHO.

    If I remember right, didn't Farrar beat Sagan twice in the Tour of California?
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  4. #4
    Senior Member cthenn's Avatar
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    A serious misunderstanding of the green jersey by OP. It is NOT the sprinter jersey, it is a points classification, for riders who finish most consistently on a daily basis. Those other guys are a joke when the road goes up even a little bit. Any climb and these guys are dropped. Riders like these are not deserving of the jersey.

    So, you say it doesn't seem right he won it, since he was probably the 4th of 5th best pure sprinter, but he's by far and away the most consistent rider. If every stage was flat, then yes, Kittel or Cav may have won, but include the hills, and Sagan is the most consistent, and thus the most deserving.

  5. #5
    Allez means go. bengreen79's Avatar
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    I loved his team's strategy on Stage 7. He easily ditched all of the pure sprinters and there was no one left to challenge him at the end.

    It will be interesting to see what Sagan's future holds. Perennial green jersey contender? Or can he transform himself into a GC competitor? His TT was only two spots out of the points as well. Maybe a a road World Championship?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
    I never really thought of Sagan as a pure sprinter like Cav is. He is missing that kind if speed at the line, but the green jersey is given for the rider who is the most consistent sprinter, not always the fastest. Sagan's strength lies in his ability to get over the hills and mountains to catch the middle sprint points while the other sprinters are dying over the mountains. That's how you win the green jersey.

    With the sprinters field growing like it is, it's going to be tough for Sagan to win many more pure sprints IMHO.

    If I remember right, didn't Farrar beat Sagan twice in the Tour of California?
    Once for the win, and once for 2nd behind Jens Voight. Sagan still won 2 stages.

    The green jersey and a stage win would make most sprinters more than happy with their Tour's work, especially over a tough course like this year's. Sagan doesn't seem to have quite the top end speed of the pure sprinters like Cav, Kittel and Greipel, but he can win races. The stage win he did get this year was excellent tactics by his team, so that'll always be a weapon in their box as long as the Tour keep including stages with one or two big climbs, but still flat enough to be kept together. And that's presuming he doesn't do a Kelly/Jalabert, shed a bit of weight, and start contesting for yellow jerseys as well as green.

    If anything, it's Cavendish who'll be disappointed after the Tour; 2 stages is his worst July yet, (even last year, when he was riding "for" Wiggins, he won 3), and for the first time there's someone in the field who can genuinely beat him in a balls-out speed contest.

    Sagan might see stages 2 and 3 as "ones that got away." The course was lumpy enough, and the big sprinters were missing, but they let Bakelants get off the front and stay away, and let Gerrans pip him at the line. That might have been part of their motivation to make sure and get it right into Albi.
    Last edited by Leinster; 07-23-13 at 08:38 PM.

  7. #7
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    It was just different team strategy. The Cannondale team knew that Kittel, Cavendish, and Greipel were all going to be competing for stage wins. The organizers changed this year's points system for sprint points to offer more points out on road, and Sagan took advantage of it. Because Sagan won more points out in the stage, they had less to offer at the end of stages, and vice versa for the other teams and sprinters who were looking to win stages. Essentially Sagan put himself on the map last year doing the same thing Kittel did this year.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by License2Ill View Post
    It was just different team strategy. The Cannondale team knew that Kittel, Cavendish, and Greipel were all going to be competing for stage wins. The organizers changed this year's points system for sprint points to offer more points out on road, and Sagan took advantage of it. Because Sagan won more points out in the stage, they had less to offer at the end of stages, and vice versa for the other teams and sprinters who were looking to win stages. Essentially Sagan put himself on the map last year doing the same thing Kittel did this year.
    The new scoring system was introduced in 2011.
    Kittel and Greipel were picking up intermediate sprints too; where Sagan won the jersey was in being able to still contend for sprints and finishes on the medium hilly stages in the first week; he had the same 100 point margin after the Ventoux that he finished the race with.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    I am thinking Sagan might go the Cancellara/Boonen route, and become a classics specialist.
    Regards,

    Jed

  10. #10
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    I thought the Tour did away with the best sprinter (red jersey) years ago.
    The green jersey, as far as I know, has been awarded to the rider that consistently finishes in the front on all the stages.

  11. #11
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    He did a wheelie during a stage and dyed his beard green. C'mon.

  12. #12
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    Last year I was in awe of some of Sagan's sprint finishes. He seemed to come from way behind and just blast past everyone else. I didn't see him do that this year.

  13. #13
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    this year the stages were hillier than last year.

  14. #14
    Senior Member busygizmo's Avatar
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    I think some slack needs to be cut, remember the tumble he took on Stage 1? Amazing really that he was contesting sprints the next two days. If Bakelants gets caught Sagan wins and maybe if he hadn't crashed he beats Gerrans. Also this tour didn't have any real sprint hills at the end of stages like last year when he beat Cancellara for a stage.

    He really isn't as fast as Kittle, Greipel or Cavendish in a straight flat sprint. He also had a team that was set up to help him over medium mountain stages, not as a sprint train.

    FWIW Kelly and Zabel won Green Jersey's without winning stages towards the end of their careers because they got over hills better than the pure sprinters.

    Also with the exception of Cancellara he was the best rider this spring with several good finishes in the classics: a win at Gent - Wevelgem, 2nd at both Flanders and Milan-San Remo.

    This guys has the chance to be the best and most well-rounded classics rider since Sean Kelly. But it isn't fair to make comparisons this early since things change, injuries, new riders come up etc.

    My only criticism, and it has to be couched in the "I've never been in a bunch sprint at any level" disclaimer, is he seems to get himself too far back at times and rely on his closing speed to make up ground. That works when you are sprinting against non-sprinters at the end of a classic or against second-tier sprinters at race like the Tour of California but in the Tour or Giro you can't close that distance. Not even Cavendish could close enough on Kittel the last stage, if he had been on Kittel's wheel instead of Greipel he might have won.

    I hope he stays motivated and healthy in the coming years because he is fun to watch.

  15. #15
    Bourbon junkie ricebowl's Avatar
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    Seems he was pretty good at playing basektball and leading teams to titles. It's the MVP not the MWRB award and he received 120 out of a possible 121 votes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by squatchy View Post

    Reminds me of all the years Shaq won NBA MVP and the guy couldn't pass,run, or shoot. Go figure
    Last edited by ricebowl; 07-24-13 at 06:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.

  16. #16
    squatchy
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    My point about Shaq was he was not a well rounded baller. Clogging up the middle because you are big and strong does not make a basketball player. What was his assist record, how about free throws, double doubles, triple doubles,steals.

    Any way my post was how I was disappointed that Sagan didn't seem to have the fire in him this year. I don't know if he has dropped off some or if the new guys are just that much better or if he was spent at the line because of the work he did winding up the open road points

  17. #17
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    Kittle seems unstoppable. Not much on this race but he beat out Griepel yesterday - sent via facebook by Felt.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/cri...eselare/photos
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  18. #18
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricebowl View Post
    Guess he was pretty good at playing basektball...
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    Clearly that guy doesn't know **** about basketball lol
    All the years Shaq won NBA MVP lol Shaq got that once

  19. #19
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Clearly that guy doesn't know **** about basketball lol
    All the years Shaq won NBA MVP lol Shaq got that once
    But man could he act

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  20. #20
    Bourbon junkie ricebowl's Avatar
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    whoops you're right, poor editing deleted the part with his actual averages for the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    Clearly that guy doesn't know **** about basketball lol
    All the years Shaq won NBA MVP lol Shaq got that once
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Show me just one law that says that a person has a right to exercise their judgement or common sense, just one.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike F View Post
    Kitt[el] seems unstoppable. Not much on this race but he beat out Griepel yesterday - sent via facebook by Felt.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/cri...eselare/photos
    Supposedly, a lot of the post-Tour criteriums are exhibitions; the right rider will win. I don't know about this specific race.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athens80 View Post
    Supposedly, a lot of the post-Tour criteriums are exhibitions; the right rider will win. I don't know about this specific race.
    I find it strange that they only have photo's on the site and the race wasnt listed at http://www.procyclingstats.com/ also. That would make perfect sense that it was an exibition.
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  23. #23
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricebowl View Post
    whoops you're right, poor editing deleted the part with his actual averages for the series.
    You were right. The guy you quoted doesn't know what the **** he's talking about
    Shaq is one of t he greatest centers of all time.
    Anyone who knows anything about b'ball knows that

  24. #24
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    Bigger difference between sprinting and points this year than in some recent ones.

    The award(s) for the best sprinter were the four stage wins that Kittel took home.

    The award for the points classification was a crushing victory for Sagan in the green jersey.

  25. #25
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    Sagan doesn't have the benefit of a strong lead out train. He's had to find wins on his own much of the time and his strategy reflects that fact. I also don't think he is focused on being the best sprinter, and unlike the other strong sprinters he does always have other options. His consistency this year is remarkable. He has a large number of wins, but if you count all the 2nd/3rd results I can't think of anyone that comes even close. I think he has greater ambitions than being a sprint specialist.

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