Pantani, Ullrich, Julich, Zabel among 1998 TDF positives
#1
Trek 500 Kid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,562
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2904 Post(s)
Liked 382 Times
in
307 Posts
Pantani, Ullrich, Julich, Zabel among 1998 TDF positives
.
Pantani, Ullrich, Julich, Zabel among 1998 TDF positives
Reotractive EPO tests from the 1998 TDF are in.
Pantani, Ullrich, Julich, Zabel among 1998 TDF positives
Reotractive EPO tests from the 1998 TDF are in.
#2
Velo Club La Grange
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: MDR, CA
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There's a really good ESPN documentary, 9:79*.
It's focus is on the 100m dash in the '88 Olympics.
And in it, a scientist says they have done retroactive drug
testing on samples from T/F athletes in the '84 Olympics, and he found
so many positives that it scared him and he didn't test any more samples.
He reasoned: what good would it do now?
It's focus is on the 100m dash in the '88 Olympics.
And in it, a scientist says they have done retroactive drug
testing on samples from T/F athletes in the '84 Olympics, and he found
so many positives that it scared him and he didn't test any more samples.
He reasoned: what good would it do now?
#3
Walmart bike rider
Did anyone not test positive for 1998? If this is true, got to do what they did to Lance, no winner during that year. Although on another hand, I don't see the point in going back that far, we all know a lot (and that's being nice, all might be more accurate) doped.
#4
Trek 500 Kid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,562
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2904 Post(s)
Liked 382 Times
in
307 Posts
I'm starting to see why Mo Siegel, the promoter of the Red Zinger Classic, just threw away the urine samples from their "doping controls" without actually sending them in to the lab. Not only cheaper but much neater lol.
Too bad that Australian Phil Anderson was distracted by an invitation to join a young lady at her place after winning the Vail criterium stage of the '78 Red Zinger Classic. He was the only one who ever got suspended for missing their phony doping controls that I'm aware of.
They didn't actually start sending them to the lab until the then-Coors Classic in '83.
Too bad that Australian Phil Anderson was distracted by an invitation to join a young lady at her place after winning the Vail criterium stage of the '78 Red Zinger Classic. He was the only one who ever got suspended for missing their phony doping controls that I'm aware of.
They didn't actually start sending them to the lab until the then-Coors Classic in '83.
#5
out walking the earth
There's a really good ESPN documentary, 9:79*.
It's focus is on the 100m dash in the '88 Olympics.
And in it, a scientist says they have done retroactive drug
testing on samples from T/F athletes in the '84 Olympics, and he found
so many positives that it scared him and he didn't test any more samples.
He reasoned: what good would it do now?
It's focus is on the 100m dash in the '88 Olympics.
And in it, a scientist says they have done retroactive drug
testing on samples from T/F athletes in the '84 Olympics, and he found
so many positives that it scared him and he didn't test any more samples.
He reasoned: what good would it do now?
https://www.amazon.com/Dirtiest-Race-.../dp/1408135957
#6
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
There's a really good ESPN documentary, 9:79*.
It's focus is on the 100m dash in the '88 Olympics.
And in it, a scientist says they have done retroactive drug
testing on samples from T/F athletes in the '84 Olympics, and he found
so many positives that it scared him and he didn't test any more samples.
He reasoned: what good would it do now?
It's focus is on the 100m dash in the '88 Olympics.
And in it, a scientist says they have done retroactive drug
testing on samples from T/F athletes in the '84 Olympics, and he found
so many positives that it scared him and he didn't test any more samples.
He reasoned: what good would it do now?
__________________
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
#7
In the Pain Cave
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,672
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
So to me, dare I ask but why is it against the rules? Take bodybuilding for example you have the natural stage and the unnatural stage. I say make it legit and or separate those who want to partake and those who don't.
To me the big issue really is the fact that it is labeled as "cheating." If you want a fair playing field than separate those on PEDs and those not. It is just a shame that "drugs" get a bad wrap because of so many poor reasons.
To me the big issue really is the fact that it is labeled as "cheating." If you want a fair playing field than separate those on PEDs and those not. It is just a shame that "drugs" get a bad wrap because of so many poor reasons.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,550
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times
in
145 Posts
So to me, dare I ask but why is it against the rules? Take bodybuilding for example you have the natural stage and the unnatural stage. I say make it legit and or separate those who want to partake and those who don't.
To me the big issue really is the fact that it is labeled as "cheating." If you want a fair playing field than separate those on PEDs and those not. It is just a shame that "drugs" get a bad wrap because of so many poor reasons.
To me the big issue really is the fact that it is labeled as "cheating." If you want a fair playing field than separate those on PEDs and those not. It is just a shame that "drugs" get a bad wrap because of so many poor reasons.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 9,083
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 5,514 Times
in
2,857 Posts
.
Pantani, Ullrich, Julich, Zabel among 1998 TDF positives
Reotractive EPO tests from the 1998 TDF are in.
Pantani, Ullrich, Julich, Zabel among 1998 TDF positives
Reotractive EPO tests from the 1998 TDF are in.
Now that is hilarious! Especially for anyone who has read Willy Voet's "Breaking the Chain".
Last edited by Shimagnolo; 07-24-13 at 10:42 AM.
#10
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,843
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1173 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
612 Posts
So to me, dare I ask but why is it against the rules? Take bodybuilding for example you have the natural stage and the unnatural stage. I say make it legit and or separate those who want to partake and those who don't.
To me the big issue really is the fact that it is labeled as "cheating." If you want a fair playing field than separate those on PEDs and those not. It is just a shame that "drugs" get a bad wrap because of so many poor reasons.
To me the big issue really is the fact that it is labeled as "cheating." If you want a fair playing field than separate those on PEDs and those not. It is just a shame that "drugs" get a bad wrap because of so many poor reasons.
And as mentioned elsewhere, the effect of doping downstream into high school would only be made worse if it is legitimized.
A grieving father's crusade against doping and the benign sounding "Performance Enhancing Drug" term:
https://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/r...-adults-072313
Middle schoolers and high schoolers are already doping to make varsity ... and at a shot at college teams etc ....
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
#11
Velo Club La Grange
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: MDR, CA
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks.
#12
In the Pain Cave
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,672
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Those are good points guys and I didn't think of the cascade effect down and up through the youth. Sure do wish their was an easy way out of all of these. Switch to Olympic standards? Time to get brutal? sad state of affairs for cycling.
#13
French roadie
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Grenoble, France
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
"Last month, Frenchman Laurent Jalabert was alleged to have been one of those implicated through comparison of retractive testing results from 2004 and a list of anonymous samples from 1998. Jalabert immediately stepped down as a television and radio pundit for this year’s Tour, replaced by Richard Virenque — one of the central riders involved in the 1998 Festina affaire."
#14
Trek 500 Kid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,562
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2904 Post(s)
Liked 382 Times
in
307 Posts
.
Italian sprinter Mario Cipollini and American Kevin Livingston positive
Excerpts from above article:
Agence France Presse reported that the following names were identified in the Senate investigation as having tested positive for EPO: Pantini and Ullrich; Frenchmen Laurent Jalabert, Jacky Durand and Laurent Desbiens; Germans Erik Zabel and Jens Heppner; Italians Cipollini, Andrea Tafi, Nicola Minali, and Fabio Sacchi; Spaniards Abraham Olano and his countrymen Marcos Serrano and Manuel Beltran; Dutchman Jeroen Blijlevens; Denmark’s Bo Hamburger; and Livingston.
Hamburger and Livingston turned in positive tests for EPO at the 1999 Tour as well, according to AFP.
According to AFP, additional riders, including American Bobby Julich, Belgian Axel Merckx, and Australian Stuart O’Grady were identified as having supplied suspicious samples.
(brevity snip)
Garmin-Sharp CEO Jonathan Vaughters, a staunch anti-doping advocate who publicly admitted his own PED use for the first time in 2012, dismissed the value of the list on Twitter on Monday night, writing: “Re ’98 tests:small percentage of guys were tested. Smaller % were still taking epo after police raids started. Names in report? Meaningless.”
Vaughters followed up by claiming that 100 percent of the peloton would have tested positive for EPO if tested three-to-four days before the start of the 1998 Tour.
Stuart O’Grady and Jacky Durand also among the positives
Durand is now a commentator for Eurosport.
Italian sprinter Mario Cipollini and American Kevin Livingston positive
Excerpts from above article:
Agence France Presse reported that the following names were identified in the Senate investigation as having tested positive for EPO: Pantini and Ullrich; Frenchmen Laurent Jalabert, Jacky Durand and Laurent Desbiens; Germans Erik Zabel and Jens Heppner; Italians Cipollini, Andrea Tafi, Nicola Minali, and Fabio Sacchi; Spaniards Abraham Olano and his countrymen Marcos Serrano and Manuel Beltran; Dutchman Jeroen Blijlevens; Denmark’s Bo Hamburger; and Livingston.
Hamburger and Livingston turned in positive tests for EPO at the 1999 Tour as well, according to AFP.
According to AFP, additional riders, including American Bobby Julich, Belgian Axel Merckx, and Australian Stuart O’Grady were identified as having supplied suspicious samples.
(brevity snip)
Garmin-Sharp CEO Jonathan Vaughters, a staunch anti-doping advocate who publicly admitted his own PED use for the first time in 2012, dismissed the value of the list on Twitter on Monday night, writing: “Re ’98 tests:small percentage of guys were tested. Smaller % were still taking epo after police raids started. Names in report? Meaningless.”
Vaughters followed up by claiming that 100 percent of the peloton would have tested positive for EPO if tested three-to-four days before the start of the 1998 Tour.
Stuart O’Grady and Jacky Durand also among the positives
Durand is now a commentator for Eurosport.
Last edited by Zinger; 07-25-13 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Added new names that just came out.
#17
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
#18
Lance Hater
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I could not care less if they dope. Make it legal to dope. Then it is up to the rider. THEN you have a level playing field.
#20
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,368
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 515 Post(s)
Liked 644 Times
in
438 Posts
I think it's generally accepted that doping on a very organized scale, was an integral part of the pro peloton since '90 ish. Given there is never a 'level' playing field, it was what it was and was about as level as anything else. I'm almost at the point where leaving it all behind might be a good thing.
Ongoing - NOT make it 'legal'. Lots of good reasons. It takes away any possible connection the common fan/rider has with the pros.
Aside from transfusions, using any kind of drug has side effects. Some may not appear for quite some time after persistent use - like decades later. I believe one sees that now with all the issues related to steroid use/abuse since the early '60s (or possibly earlier).
We owe it both to our young and our sport to keep them and the sport as clean as possible.
Cycling is an incredibly healthy physical activity for most, and is one of the few one can do to a very, very ripe old age.
How many baseball/football/basketball players actually do it as they age? Many drop out in their 40's, maybe most.
There are hundreds of thousands of older riders out there. Many like me, who were competitive (and some still are) for many decades.
Cycling needs/must maintain the higher ground.
Cycling/racing is much less about who makes it up the Alp D'heuz the fastest. It's more about the 'competition' of all those who attempt to be the fastest.
IMO
Ongoing - NOT make it 'legal'. Lots of good reasons. It takes away any possible connection the common fan/rider has with the pros.
Aside from transfusions, using any kind of drug has side effects. Some may not appear for quite some time after persistent use - like decades later. I believe one sees that now with all the issues related to steroid use/abuse since the early '60s (or possibly earlier).
We owe it both to our young and our sport to keep them and the sport as clean as possible.
Cycling is an incredibly healthy physical activity for most, and is one of the few one can do to a very, very ripe old age.
How many baseball/football/basketball players actually do it as they age? Many drop out in their 40's, maybe most.
There are hundreds of thousands of older riders out there. Many like me, who were competitive (and some still are) for many decades.
Cycling needs/must maintain the higher ground.
Cycling/racing is much less about who makes it up the Alp D'heuz the fastest. It's more about the 'competition' of all those who attempt to be the fastest.
IMO
#21
Trek 500 Kid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,562
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2904 Post(s)
Liked 382 Times
in
307 Posts
Aside from transfusions, using any kind of drug has side effects. Some may not appear for quite some time after persistent use - like decades later. I believe one sees that now with all the issues related to steroid use/abuse since the early '60s (or possibly earlier).
We owe it both to our young and our sport to keep them and the sport as clean as possible.
We owe it both to our young and our sport to keep them and the sport as clean as possible.
There's also the case of Tyler Hamilton's blood bag being mixed up with someone else's which indicates the risks of the practice once it's left in the hands of incompetent hacks of the type you might well have involved, especially at the lower levels of the sport.
What I hope these revelations do is intimidate future would be cheaters (which might well be why they're doing this) and don't really care if they pull Ullrich's and Pantani's wins so long as it serves that purpose. The die is already cast in that regard anyway.
Last edited by Zinger; 07-25-13 at 01:51 PM.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 9,083
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 5,514 Times
in
2,857 Posts
Interesting article in a recent "Economist" issue: https://www.economist.com/news/scienc...hletes-dilemma
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 2,668
Bikes: 2023 Canyon Aeoroad CF SL, 2015 Trek Emonda SLR, 2002 Litespeed Classic, 2005 Bianchi Pista, Some BikesDirect MTB I never ride.
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 647 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times
in
89 Posts
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: location location
Posts: 3,035
Bikes: MBK Super Mirage 1991, CAAD10, Yuba Mundo Lux, and a Cannondale Criterium Single Speed
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times
in
207 Posts
And Landis, and Contador, and Riis, and Ullrich... they may or may not do something about Pantani now that they have a positive test for him, but since it was 15 years ago and he's now dead, probably not.
The whole mess was never only about Lance, but since he was the one who put up the biggest fight (and won the most Tours) he's the one it came down hardest on.
The whole mess was never only about Lance, but since he was the one who put up the biggest fight (and won the most Tours) he's the one it came down hardest on.