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  1. #26
    Heretic Caretaker's Avatar
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    A heads-up on an abridged version of an interview with Alex Gibney done by Paul Kimmage.

    Some interesting insights on the ToC newsconference spat with PK among other things.

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...drugs-in-sport
    History is the future

  2. #27
    Senior Member Chicago Al's Avatar
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    Trailer:
    I never think I have hit hard, unless it rebounds.

    - Dr Samuel Johnson

  3. #28
    Heretic Caretaker's Avatar
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    ^^Last words "it's the truth".
    History is the future

  4. #29
    Senior Member totalnewbie's Avatar
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    besides "Dear Mr. Watterson" this will be the documentary that I most want to watch.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Tell me again why people like Jim Ochowicz and people like him are still allowed to run pro cycling teams. I mean, he and people like him should never be allowed to run pro teams, as he was aware/complicit in the doping program at US Postal and maybe some other teams he was associated with. I just would like for the augean stables to be totally cleaned with regard to doping in pro cycling. And people like Ochowicz, Weisel, Bruyneel, Riis, Fuentes, Celaya et al should be shown the door.

    That is one way pro cycling can be cleaned up!
    Regards,

    Jed

  6. #31
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    Tell me again why people like Jim Ochowicz and people like him are still allowed to run pro cycling teams. I mean, he and people like him should never be allowed to run pro teams, as he was aware/complicit in the doping program at US Postal and maybe some other teams he was associated with. I just would like for the augean stables to be totally cleaned with regard to doping in pro cycling. And people like Ochowicz, Weisel, Bruyneel, Riis, Fuentes, Celaya et al should be shown the door.

    That is one way pro cycling can be cleaned up!
    To my knowledge Ochowicz wasn't involved in US Postal. Whether there was doping going on at Motorola is not yet established. According to Phil Anderson they talked about the other teams doping during the mid '90s questioning as to whether they should too and, according to Anderson, the idea was rejected at the time.

    I do know that Steroids were used by Panasonic during the '80s when Anderson rode for them because Alexi Grewal spilled the beans about that. He said that everybody who rode with Panasonic was handed a syringe with their dose and everybody took part. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was doping when he rode for Motorola.

    If Ochowicz knew what was going on at US Postal he could have easily guessed it since that was becoming a necessity to compete at the top level by then. If I could guess it then he probably could too, lol. Maybe they admitted it to him too but that's really not quite grounds to ban Ochowicz unless there's evidence that he operated any team doping program.
    Last edited by Zinger; 10-29-13 at 02:42 PM.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  7. #32
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    Right now, at 5:53am, there are 17 year old kids in full kit in Normandy, Picardy, and Belgium who are in the rainy forest smoking a mixture of methamphetamine and codeine (or stronger) before they go on a vicious 200km ride.

    The culture of drugs are innate within cycling, it's just impossible to separate the two.

    Lance is the sketchiest Strava dude I follow.

  8. #33
    Velo Club La Grange Cat4Lifer's Avatar
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    lol@Och being "complicit" with doping on USPS
    What exactly was Och's role with USPS?
    the dodge in 3,2,1...

  9. #34
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
    lol@Och being "complicit" with doping on USPS
    What exactly was Och's role with USPS?
    the dodge in 3,2,1...
    Actually meant to say Motorola, which was the precursor to the US Postal team.
    Regards,

    Jed

  10. #35
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    Actually meant to say Motorola, which was the precursor to the US Postal team.
    I'm not sure how Motorola was any "precursor" to US Postal other than the fact that they were both American teams (with completely different management) and both had Armstrong and Hampsten riding for them at different times. I also find it hard to believe that Hampsten would have stuck with any team that had a doping program for very long. That's actually the reason that he retired early as documented in Hamilton's book. Hampsten was always almost fanatically anti-doping as also documented in the book about Ochowicz's 7-11 team.

    I'm just not seeing anything that ties Ochowicz to any team doping program. Am I missing something ?
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  11. #36
    Senior Member
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    Bill Simmons did a podcast with the director, it's up on Itunes now. I haven't listened to it yet. Is the movie in wide release now? Has anyone seen it?

  12. #37
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    Actually meant to say Motorola, which was the precursor to the US Postal team.
    OK it looks like Motorola did, in fact, have a doping program starting in '96 according to this interview.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...terview-part-1

    So you could ban Ochowicz I guess but I don't know if that would actually accomplish much. I kind of doubt that BMC has any doping program now.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  13. #38
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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  14. #39
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Saw it two weeks ago.

    It is fascinating.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  15. #40
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    Actually meant to say Motorola, which was the precursor to the US Postal team.
    Incorrect.

    Weisel owned Subaru-Montgomery, which became Montgomery Bell, which became US Postal. Motorola folded and riders went over when hired by Weisel. Montgomery, was Montgomery Securities, that was started by Weisel.

    Weisel was essentially funding this team. Then US Postal came along.


    The team was managed back then by Eddie Borysewicz.

    Ochowicz's tie to Lance was via Motorola. He did 7-11 and Motorola and his focus was mostly the Olympic teams until BMC.

    After Motorola, Ochowicz became a stock broker and later went to work for Weisel. He also became president of USA Cycling.

    If anyone really wants to learn something about all this...see the movie or get a copy of "Wheelmen".

    Inside the cover of "Wheelman" is a diagram showing all the relationships people had that were involved. If nothing else, that is fascinating.
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 12-20-13 at 08:59 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  16. #41
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
    OK it looks like Motorola did, in fact, have a doping program starting in '96 according to this interview.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...terview-part-1

    So you could ban Ochowicz I guess but I don't know if that would actually accomplish much. I kind of doubt that BMC has any doping program now.
    Och left Motorola in 1995.
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 12-20-13 at 08:58 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  17. #42
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
    Och left Motorola in 1995.
    OK thanks. I didn't realize that.....Whew, glad to hear it too.
    I like Och. I know there was some sort of pressure from the riders themselves to do something like that to stay competitive and that was rejected (resisted by Ochowicz is what I'm reading between the lines here) according to Phil Anderson. According to him no doping program happened at Motorola before he retired.

    I know Panasonic had one when he rode for them though. That was in the pre-EPO days. So I don't really know what side Phil came down on in this inner team debate.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  18. #43
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
    OK thanks. I didn't realize that.....Whew, glad to hear it too.
    I like Och. I know there was some sort of pressure from the riders themselves to do something like that to stay competitive and that was rejected (resisted by Ochowicz is what I'm reading between the lines here) according to Phil Anderson. According to him no doping program happened at Motorola before he retired.

    I know Panasonic had one when he rode for them though. That was in the pre-EPO days. So I don't really know what side Phil came down on in this inner team debate.
    According to the movie, the Motorola guys were gettting drilled in races and they got together to decide to quit, or join 'em. I think we know the answer to that.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  19. #44
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
    According to the movie, the Motorola guys were gettting drilled in races and they got together to decide to quit, or join 'em. I think we know the answer to that.
    Yeah that's pretty much what Anderson said in a separate interview. He said it didn't happen yet while he was still there.

    Haven't seen the movie but Anderson retired in '94 so that's a year ahead of Och and two years ahead of what was admitted so far in the printed interview I posted.....unless the movie says earlier.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  20. #45
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Since it's Christmas Eve I'm going to dream of TdF Past and think of my favorite TdF fans...

    And may visions of flawless mountain stages dance in your heads...

    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  21. #46
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    Since it's Christmas Eve I'm going to dream of TdF Past and think of my favorite TdF fans...

    And may visions of flawless mountain stages dance in your heads...

    Lookit those guys spin.
    Quote Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
    There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
    RUSA #7498

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