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-   -   Horner (http://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/913219-horner.html)

Leinster 09-17-13 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechemist (Post 16075081)
Its going to be a rough few years for GT jersey winners with LA at el. I just wish we could get past this. Why do we have 7+ articles from Velo, cyclingnews stipulating did these guys dope? Innocent until proven guilty, its just a bummer that these guys can't embrace such a win without being riddled with questions.

A 41 year old winning his first Grand Tour by riding away from the likes of Purito and Valverde up the steepest mountains in Spain would draw questions no matter what era it happened in. Throw in all the Lance stuff and the hotel screw-up, and there looks to be some smoke blowing around and lots of people looking for a fire.

roadwarrior 09-17-13 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caretaker (Post 16074539)
Everyone seems to be blaming the Spanish testing agency for the leak but it could have been some hotel employee or a journalist hanging round it hoping for an interview.

Had they checked ADAMS, they would not have gone to the wrong hotel. I think that's the point.

bici_mania 09-17-13 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leinster (Post 16075140)
A 41 year old winning his first Grand Tour by riding away from the likes of Purito and Valverde up the steepest mountains in Spain would draw questions no matter what era it happened in. Throw in all the Lance stuff and the hotel screw-up, and there looks to be some smoke blowing around and lots of people looking for a fire.

+1

A 41 year old that was part of the LA dynasty.

I love watching pro cycling, I admire what these athletes do and have some understanding of what it takes. But it is going to take a few years without major doping scandals before I see a rider in the top 20 of any race and be confident they are not doping. Much more so for one my age winning a grand tour.

asgelle 09-17-13 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bici_mania (Post 16075712)
A 41 year old that was part of the LA dynasty.

Horner rode on the same team as Armstrong. To claim 2009-2011 was part of the Armstrong Dynasty is a real stretch.

Caretaker 09-17-13 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadwarrior (Post 16075251)
Had they checked ADAMS, they would not have gone to the wrong hotel. I think that's the point.

Have they access to his ADAMS data? It was my understanding that they were acting on information supplied by USADA.

The point is also about the fact this appeared in the media before the mistake was discovered.

ooga-booga 09-18-13 12:17 AM

arguably the greatest american roadie ever given his absolute domestic dominance and later european success-riding much of it as a super-domestique.

people will argue armstrong (maybe not anymore) or lemond but greg's pro career was shorter. granted, he does have 3 tdf's and a few wc's.

MinnMan 09-18-13 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leinster (Post 16075140)
A 41 year old winning his first Grand Tour by riding away from the likes of Purito and Valverde up the steepest mountains in Spain would draw questions no matter what era it happened in. Throw in all the Lance stuff and the hotel screw-up, and there looks to be some smoke blowing around and lots of people looking for a fire.

+1. I truly hope he's clean, but watching him stand on his pedals seemingly indefinitely as he climbed away, you couldn't help but think that this is what they all looked like back in the day when they were doped to the gills.

roadwarrior 09-18-13 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caretaker (Post 16076222)
Have they access to his ADAMS data? It was my understanding that they were acting on information supplied by USADA.

The point is also about the fact this appeared in the media before the mistake was discovered.

Yes, they would have access. It is actually administered by WADA. It is in twelve languages. And I totally agree with your last sentence. Which is why there will probably be a punitive lawsuit filed.

roadwarrior 09-18-13 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leinster (Post 16075140)
A 41 year old winning his first Grand Tour by riding away from the likes of Purito and Valverde up the steepest mountains in Spain would draw questions no matter what era it happened in. Throw in all the Lance stuff and the hotel screw-up, and there looks to be some smoke blowing around and lots of people looking for a fire.

There was no hotel screw up from Horner's perspective. It has already been established that, in regard as to his following protocol, Horner did nothing wrong. It was the fault of the testing agency and their blabbing it happened only makes them look more idiotic.

jyl 09-18-13 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinnMan (Post 16077971)
+1. I truly hope he's clean, but watching him stand on his pedals seemingly indefinitely as he climbed away, you couldn't help but think that this is what they all looked like back in the day when they were doped to the gills.

He always climbs standing, for as long as I've been watching him. Not "indefinitely", more like for ten minutes.

bici_mania 09-18-13 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asgelle (Post 16075942)
Horner rode on the same team as Armstrong. To claim 2009-2011 was part of the Armstrong Dynasty is a real stretch.

You are correct, that is a stretch. I want a bit to far.

mprelaw 09-18-13 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooga-booga (Post 16077877)
arguably the greatest american roadie ever given his absolute domestic dominance and later european success-riding much of it as a super-domestique.

people will argue armstrong (maybe not anymore) or lemond but greg's pro career was shorter. granted, he does have 3 tdf's and a few wc's.

Don't forget his two TdF podiums as a domestique for Fignon in 1984 and Hinault in 1985, along with a 3rd place finish in the Giro in 85 as well. ;)

He also has a junior WC, and two podium finishes at the WC to go along with his 2 rainbow jerseys.

merlinextraligh 09-18-13 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooga-booga (Post 16077877)
arguably the greatest american roadie ever given his absolute domestic dominance and later european success-riding much of it as a super-domestique.

people will argue armstrong (maybe not anymore) or lemond but greg's pro career was shorter. granted, he does have 3 tdf's and a few wc's.

WTF?

Not even close. Lemond's an order of magnitude above Horner. Hampsten's above Horner.

If we're talking domestic success, Horner didn't win as much as Davis Phinney, who also has 2 TDF stage wins, to Horner's zero.

And if you don't consider doping, you've got to put Armstrong, Hamilton, and Landis above Horner.

And what is this European success? Other than the Veulta win, what do you have 9th place in the TDF? 5th in the Tour de Suisse?

In fact the pattern appears rather smelly: Giro; One start, One DNF; Tour de France; 33rd, 61st,14th, DNF, 9th, DNF, 13th; Veulta; 20th, 36th, DNF, then 1st at age 41?

DiabloScott 09-18-13 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16079705)
And what is this European success? Other than the Veulta win, what do you have 9th place in the TDF? 5th in the Tour de Suisse?

It's Vuelta. And he also has a Vuelta al País Basco in which he kicked arse on Valverde, Rodriguez, Sanchez, and Gesink including a win in the TT stage.

Domestically he's also won the San Francisco Grand Prix and Tour of California, Redlands multiple times, and Tour of Georgia.

He's a fun guy to watch, comparisons to Lemond and Phinney are just silly.

merlinextraligh 09-18-13 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiabloScott (Post 16079938)
It's Vuelta. And he also has a Vuelta al País Basco in which he kicked arse on Valverde, Rodriguez, Sanchez, and Gesink including a win in the TT stage.

Domestically he's also won the San Francisco Grand Prix and Tour of California, Redlands multiple times, and Tour of Georgia.

He's a fun guy to watch, comparisons to Lemond and Phinney are just silly.

He had a great domestic career, and success in Europe that most anyone would be proud of. But it's not of the magnitude that makes him "arguably the best american racer ever"

I think I'd be more exited about the Vuelta win, if I weren't so suspicuous, which is a sad commentary on the state of the sport now.

Jed19 09-18-13 06:43 PM

I am happy for Horner. Having said that, I am very suspicious too. Just look at the people he defeated, and at the ripe old age of 41 too.

It also just so happened that he turned in this result of his life just as he'll need a new contract. That makes me suspicious. It just goes to show the damage dopers have done to pro cycling. It is gonna be a long long time before a grand tour winner is not viewed suspiciously as a doper. And that is a real shame.

asgelle 09-19-13 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16079982)
I think I'd be more exited about the Vuelta win, if I weren't so suspicuous, which is a sad commentary on the state of the sport now.

An insider's perspective http://cameronwurf.blogspot.com

merlinextraligh 09-19-13 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asgelle (Post 16082425)
An insider's perspective http://cameronwurf.blogspot.com

I hope he's right, but we've heard it all before.

His point that other riders would not tolerate it in this generation if a top rider was winning by doping, assumes that the other riders are not doping.

Again, I hope he's right, but one bitten, twice shy.

Leinster 09-19-13 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16082447)
I hope he's right, but we've heard it all before.

His point that other riders would not tolerate it in this generation if a top rider was winning by doping, assumes that the other riders are not doping.

Again, I hope he's right, but one bitten, twice shy.

When he goes on about "nimrods and bogus calculations" he sounds a bit like he doth protest too much. When he says "today's peloton wouldn't stand for it," well you'd think the post-Festina guys wouldn't have stood for it either.

I want to believe too, but it's going to take time.

asgelle 09-19-13 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leinster (Post 16084281)
When he says "today's peloton wouldn't stand for it," well you'd think the post-Festina guys wouldn't have stood for it either.

You should go back and read some of the contemporary publications from the 90's and early 2000's. You won't see language like that at all.

Leinster 09-19-13 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asgelle (Post 16084521)
You should go back and read some of the contemporary publications from the 90's and early 2000's. You won't see language like that at all.

Not so much the language/content/vocab, no, but the indignant "how dare you question us" tone.

Bacciagalupe 09-19-13 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leinster (Post 16084765)
Not so much the language/content/vocab, no, but the indignant "how dare you question us" tone.

Yep. Riders stopped racing for a full hour in the middle of the stage, to protest the searches and investigations into Festina.

Leinster 09-19-13 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe (Post 16084979)
Yep. Riders stopped racing for a full hour in the middle of the stage, to protest the searches and investigations into Festina.

I was reminded of that on that "100 years of the tour" doc that got shown here this year. The helicopter shots of different riders literally pointing fingers in the middle of a stopped peloton brought back some bad memories.

TallRider 09-20-13 10:25 AM

On the regular-American-news-outlets-that-covered-Horner's-victory, you can add Grantland (an ESPN subsidiary aimed at a statistically- and culturally-aware crowd)
Chris Horner, the Unlikely American Cycling Hero

Quote:

...But with apologies to the real cycling fans of the Internet, I'm going to make five assumptions about you, the Grantland reader who stumbled on this article.
First, you've only ever heard of the Vuelta in passing, if at all, and ditto for Chris Horner.
Second, you're wondering why you should care.
Third, you lack some basic facts.
Fourth, the first word that comes to mind when you come across a cycling story is "doping."
Fifth, you've yet to encounter the poetic side of the sport...
Nice article, trying to explain some of the basics of bike racing to the unfamiliar sports fan.
Unfortunately, it was posted at 5:30 PM on a Wednesday, and apparently most people who read Grantland check the website while at work.

jyl 09-20-13 12:30 PM

Earlier in Wurf's blog, he recounts a conversation with Horner about what racing was like earlier in Horner's career. Horner said that back in the day he struggled to keep up with the peleton, even to make it to the feed zone in time for food. I wonder if he was telling young Wurf what it was like when doping was in full swing, and I also wonder if that has something to do with Horner's retreat to the US domestic racing scene for a decade in mid-career. I also wonder why he was, apparently, never accepted into the inner circle of top-level US pro racers in Europe.


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