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-   -   Cycling Racing winning/losing has to change (http://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/930440-cycling-racing-winning-losing-has-change.html)

zymphad 01-18-14 09:59 PM

Cycling Racing winning/losing has to change
 
There is no team sport like cycling, that is as pathetic and despicable. IF it's a team sport, then the TEAM should be on the podium. And also it should be about who has the overall best TEAM. It shouldn't be about having a few people do their job, but really at the finish line there is just two people, example Mark Cavendish and Mark Renfaul with HTC, rest of the HTC team is nowhere.

This is how it should be. The TEAM with the lowest overall score wins. Which means the team that has the overall best time. This would be as expected of team racing. In cross country, it was the TEAM with overall best times, lowest score wins. In a relay, TEAM with overall lowest time wins, now who has the lowest time, just happens in relay it's in relay format.

There isn't any doubt that cycling is in a way a team sport. A really demented one. But Mark Cavendish or Wiggle can't win without a team, frankly they probably have a hard time finishing top 10 without a good team, being sprinters. If that is the case, then this should be about team.

I wonder how many else agree with me and find cycling as a team sport is demented. One leader, one sprinter takes all the glory on the podium. It's not Sky on the podium, it's Wiggle, just Wiggle. And maybe, dunno, another team actually had the overall lowest score and best performance as a whole, they may not even be on the podium.

That sucks, that's dumb. Really really really dumb.

If people want to see sprinters taking all the glory, then they should just have individual races for sprinters to battle it out. That's what track and field and swimming does. You have individual races for sprinters to take glory. Then you have TEAM events, where team members who may not have been good enough to qualify for individual event, but damn good to complete the TEAM and win as a TEAM.

Can you imagine if the USA wins in Hockey because player A had the most goals even though as a TEAM, Russia had the most goals? That's cycling. Really really really really dumb.

Is there another racing TEAM sport where you see person A attacking and then when job done, with finish line 200m away, just gives up, rides to the sides and let just ONE person go ahead and win it? Just gives up, doesn't try, doesn't pedal hard anymore, doesn't care if he comes in last place, doesn't care if he crashes and does no finish? REALLY REALLY REALLY DUMB.

More I read and more I watch cycling TEAM races, more I'm dumbfounded at how DUMB this TEAM sport is. The stupidity of it astounds me. I don't think there is anything in any Team athletic sport/hobby or game that is as stupid as cycling. I really don't think any other TEAM sport comes even close to how dumb cycling is as a TEAM sport.

skidder 01-18-14 10:18 PM

You do realize that all pro team sports give out awards for the Most Valuable Player, don't you? Baseball, football, basketball, hockey, soccer, rugby, etc, etc? So do a lot of high school and college team sports programs. Pro cycling isn't doing anything different.

zymphad 01-18-14 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidder (Post 16422804)
You do realize that all pro team sports give out awards for the Most Valuable Player, don't you? Baseball, football, basketball, hockey, soccer, rugby, etc, etc? So do a lot of high school and college team sports programs. Pro cycling isn't doing anything different.

Are you daft? Pro cycling is doing something different. An individual wins the race, not the team. An MVP does not get all the glory for winning. When the Patriots win the Super Bowl, the TEAM wins the trophy, the TEAM gets championship rings, the TEAM gets a parade and celebrated. The TEAM is on the record books for 2014 Superbowl Win. It won't say, 2014 SuperBowl - Tom Brady. In Tour de France it's not Sky Team, it's Wiggle. There is no mention of anyone else on his team. When the trophy is awarded, it's Wiggle on the podium, not Sky. When SuperBowl is awarded, the TEAM is awarded. Every team member gets to hold, kiss, do whatever they do to the trophy.

Don't know what Football, Basketball or Baseball game you watch. I always see Yankees win. Not Mariona Rivera wins, though sometimes he does get to add a win to his pitching stats. But he didn't win the game, the Yankees won the game. Clearly you and I watch different Team sports games. In TEAM sports, a TEAM player doesn't have to score most touchdowns, hit most home runs or have the most dunks. A team member just being the most consistent, injury free, showing up and doing his job day in and day out with a .250 batting average, 15 home runs a year, can still become a beloved player among his TEAM's fans. Cause everyone knows, the team wouldn't be as good without him, even though he doesn't bat clean up. Nobody gave a crap that Hamilton gave it his all for USPS, only Lance mattered. I have no idea who else is on Team Sky other than Wiggle and frankly I don't have to, doesn't matter.

the sci guy 01-18-14 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zymphad (Post 16422777)

Is there another racing TEAM sport where you see person A attacking and then when job done, with finish line 200m away, just gives up, rides to the sides and let just ONE person go ahead and win it? Just gives up, doesn't try, doesn't pedal hard anymore, doesn't care if he comes in last place, doesn't care if he crashes and does no finish? REALLY REALLY REALLY DUMB.

More I read and more I watch cycling TEAM races, more I'm dumbfounded at how DUMB this TEAM sport is. The stupidity of it astounds me. I don't think there is anything in any Team athletic sport/hobby or game that is as stupid as cycling. I really don't think any other TEAM sport comes even close to how dumb cycling is as a TEAM sport.


NASCAR and/or F1 ride in teams all the time.

zymphad 01-18-14 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the sci guy (Post 16422829)
NASCAR and/or F1 ride in teams all the time.

Then they are really DUMB TEAM sports too. REALLY REALLY REALLY DUMB.

If a team wants to expend all their effort just so one sprinter can finish the line, whatever, that's not the point. Wiggle should not be on the podium alone. It should be TEAM SKY. Wiggle would not have finished #1 without them. Even the person who wiped out in stage 5 and could not finish the Tour should be up there. Even the dude who got disqualified for head butting or doing someone out of line, should be up there. Tour de France should not be remembered by a single name, but by a Team. The sprinter who crossed finish line first should just be a notation.

There are already ways for an individual to make a name for himself. The green jacket for example or winning an individual time trial.

If other sports are as stupid as cycling as a TEAM sport, that makes that sport stupid too, not make cycling not stupid, it's still stupid, they are both stupid.

GamblerGORD53 01-18-14 10:47 PM

I have to agree, that's why I never really watched it much. They did finally come to my back yard in Alberta this year, so I went to see the sprint and one spot of a stage. The Tour has been a basically a roller derby for at least 50 years. There are rabbits, blockers and the likely deserving and appointed team KING who gets the credit and the others share the cash.

The thing is it's not like a marathon where your time IS your time. For bike races they give the same time to all in the clump. I just get disgusted at the narrow roads and crowds that swarm close when they are going slow.

Mobile 155 01-18-14 10:51 PM

I hope you got that out of your system. ;) You might want to go back and read how bicycle racing got started. When Henri Desgrange started the TDF he did everything in his power to keep teams from forming. But when you start paying prize money or involve national pride people will simply form into groups and we call those groups teams, for lack of a more descriptive term. Think about the Olympics? The US may send a track team over but only one member will get the gold. Basket ball or Hockey is .different, that is a team sport. Cycling is not a team sport in the same way. The members of a cycling team and paid to support the person the owners want then to support. If they don't want to support that rider they can ride for someone else or not get paid, or I suppose form their own team to support them. It has always been that way.:lol:

skidder 01-18-14 10:57 PM

zympad, you might want to go on YouTube and see if you can find video of the awards ceremony for the 2013 TdF - they DID give out team trophies for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place teams, and all the team members for each of those teams was up on the stage. They also do it for the Giro and Vuelta, and the Tour of California, but the media always focuses on the single winner.

Cross country racing (footracing) - I did that in high school and college, and there were always both team and individual awards given out at invitational meets and the end-of-season championship races.

CbadRider 01-18-14 11:08 PM

Moved from General to Pro.

Homebrew01 01-19-14 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CbadRider (Post 16422900)
Moved from General to Pro.

Why not Trollheim ?

Dudelsack 01-19-14 08:32 AM

Don't pro racers share winnings with the team?

Bandera 01-19-14 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zymphad (Post 16422777)
There is no team sport like cycling, that is as pathetic and despicable.

Sounds like you've never been part of a cycling club, pinned on a number & competed.
If you've never given your sprinter a lead out or closed a gap with teammates working together in echelon you won't know what cycling team dynamic's are all about and how races are won & lost.

Watch golf instead. :lol:

-Bandera

rebel1916 01-19-14 11:06 AM

1 Attachment(s)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=360276

MinnMan 01-19-14 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandera (Post 16423312)
Sounds like you've never been part of a cycling club, pinned on a number & competed.
If you've never given your sprinter a lead out or closed a gap with teammates working together in echelon you won't know what cycling team dynamic's are all about and how races are won & lost.

Watch golf instead. :lol:

-Bandera

+1. Clearly this guy has never ridden competitively. The Team with the overall lowest "score"? HTF would that work? A brilliant lead out with the sprinter crossing the finish line first, but you lose because two other teammates crashed out and DNF? So teams would care more about whether their weaker riders get dropped than about who's in front? Yeah, that would be really exciting.

If the OP isn't a troll, ten he doesn't know a thing about racing.

Homebrew01 01-19-14 06:39 PM

I think bike racing is different from the OP's sports knowledge, so that makes it "wrong". Notify the UCI. They love pointless rule changes, so they might be interested.

bigfred 01-19-14 06:45 PM

The OP obviously has a very limited knowledge of cycle racing. And, is a troll.

MinnMan 01-19-14 08:19 PM

Maybe somebody should explain to the poor guy about TTTs. Those actually match his ideal. But it sounds like he's never seen one.

caloso 01-19-14 08:59 PM

In the last season or so, the USAC has been marking the results for the teammates of the podium with little medals in the race results. So there's that.

canam73 01-20-14 12:39 AM

It is what it is. If it appeals to you, watch. If not, don't.

It's not like there aren't plenty of other ways to ef away your time.

Homebrew01 01-20-14 08:51 AM

I think it's dumb that in hockey, basketball etc, when the team wins, even the benchwarmers get counted as "winners". They should have to stay on the bench and only the guys who really played should get a medal, or trophy. At the Olympics, if a team wins a medal, then the individual medals should be sized based on the amount of actual playing time. The benchwarmers will get a "participant" ribbon.

The officials will calculate actual playing time. If you played half the game, you get half a medal. 1/4 of the game, 1/4 of a medal. There will be a guy in the back room with a hack saw to custom cut each medal for each player.

canam73 01-20-14 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homebrew01 (Post 16425522)
I think it's dumb that in hockey, basketball etc, when the team wins, even the benchwarmers get counted as "winners". They should have to stay on the bench and only the guys who really played should get a medal, or trophy. At the Olympics, if a team wins a medal, then the individual medals should be sized based on the amount of actual playing time. The benchwarmers will get a "participant" ribbon.

The officials will calculate actual playing time. If you played half the game, you get half a medal. 1/4 of the game, 1/4 of a medal. There will be a guy in the back room with a hack saw to custom cut each medal for each player.

I think you will appreciate comments after ~1:40


GamblerGORD53 01-20-14 11:26 AM

Since the whole setup is based on teams, Why don't they have team a Time Trial day ?? Same as in the Olympic track team events. Say 5 or 6 of the 8 riders count at the finish line. That would look rather impressive.

For those who DON'T think it's all about teams, then why do I see at the end of every stage, the gofers suddenly stop pedalling about 1/4 or 1/2 mile from the end and let "Lance+Cadel" go by??

As for DUMB allowances in the rules ... One rider actually changed his BIKE at the top of the mountain in the middle of the hour TT, simply to have different gears. Wussie much ????

Keith99 01-20-14 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinnMan (Post 16424207)
+1. Clearly this guy has never ridden competitively. The Team with the overall lowest "score"? HTF would that work? A brilliant lead out with the sprinter crossing the finish line first, but you lose because two other teammates crashed out and DNF? So teams would care more about whether their weaker riders get dropped than about who's in front? Yeah, that would be really exciting.

If the OP isn't a troll, ten he doesn't know a thing about racing.

Heck he has never run cross country either because he got the scoring on that wrong too.

Or for that matter he hasn't even actually watched a tour as there is a team competition, it is just considered a minor or consolation prize. And long run it is the fans who determine which prizes are important.

EDIT: I never ran cross country but I watched a few meets, they actually have a chute at the finish to force the runners into a placing line as it is place that matters.

That reminded me about some of the rules of cycle racing. Things like why riders in the same group get the same time. So does our brilliant {sarcasm intended** OP want to eliminate that and create carnage or is it that he wants major races to be determined more by how many riders on a team fall off the back instead of who finishes high?

Keith99 01-20-14 01:14 PM

Doh,

I forgot the obvious. Can anyone here imagine a sport where they finish and the spectators have no idea who won? That is exactly what the OP is proposing for cycling. A world where TV viewer have to wait, likely minutes at the end of a tour and perhaps hours for a classic on during the early stages of a tour and live viewer won't know until they get home.

canam73 01-20-14 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 16426251)
Doh,

I forgot the obvious. Can anyone here imagine a sport where they finish and the spectators have no idea who won? That is exactly what the OP is proposing for cycling. A world where TV viewer have to wait, likely minutes at the end of a tour and perhaps hours for a classic on during the early stages of a tour and live viewer won't know until they get home.

Yeah, it would suck to not know who won the TdF until after the fact.

http://i.guim.co.uk/item-620/sys-ima...es-yel-008.jpg


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