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  1. #1
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Bruyneel gets 10yr ban

    I do however agree with Bruyneel's statement here:

    “There is clearly something wrong with a system that allows only six individuals to be punished as retribution for the sins of an era.”

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    Heretic Caretaker's Avatar
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    "It's all the system's fault"

    I've no sympathy for the guy or his argument.
    History is the future

  3. #3
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Shoot, he defiantly deserved what he got if not more! I don't know what the "system" pressure, push to succeed at any cost etc was but I do know environment can play a HUGE roll in decision making.

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    The system is made by the people in it. Some make it worse, some try to make it better. I think he knows which side he is on.

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    So, when's Contador getting his ban? He rode on the same teams with Armstrong for Bruyneel.

    And Contador even failed a drug test while doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    So, when's Contador getting his ban? He rode on the same teams with Armstrong for Bruyneel.

    And Contador even failed a drug test while doing it.
    You meant this one: "Voided results from July 2010 to February 2012."?

    And fwiw, Bruyneel and LA had left Astana for 2010. He didn't fail while riding with/for them and had to answer for himself.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechemist View Post
    I do however agree with Bruyneel's statement here:

    “There is clearly something wrong with a system that allows only six individuals to be punished as retribution for the sins of an era.”
    Totally agree. There isn't anyone who will doubt Bruyneel and Armstrong were thugs who used their power and influence to control a dirty sport in their favor, BUT that does not excuse all the other riders and teams and doctors and DS' who committed the same doping offenses. That's what bugs me about this Tygart guy, he talks like he's the most noble person on the face of the earth and wanting to clean up a dirty sport for all those poor clean riders who were denied their rights to blah blah blah, but then he'll let admitted dopers go with the lightest of sentences just so he could get his man Lance.

    It's possible for many things to be equally true. Armstrong and Bruyneel deserved what they got AND more of these guys should have faced stiffer punishments, AND Tygart had a vendetta against Armstrong. It's plainly clear to anyone who does not wear the Lance Armstrong fanboy jersey, OR those who are blinded by their hate for him. These guys need to STFU and go away, but so does Tyler "Buy My Book" Hamilton, Dirtbag Landis, Frankie Andreu... along with all these other guys who still have jobs in cycling. If you want to forget an era, get rid of ALL of them, not just the biggest, meanest jerks on the block.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
    Totally agree. There isn't anyone who will doubt Bruyneel and Armstrong were thugs who used their power and influence to control a dirty sport in their favor, BUT that does not excuse all the other riders and teams and doctors and DS' who committed the same doping offenses. That's what bugs me about this Tygart guy, he talks like he's the most noble person on the face of the earth and wanting to clean up a dirty sport for all those poor clean riders who were denied their rights to blah blah blah, but then he'll let admitted dopers go with the lightest of sentences just so he could get his man Lance.

    It's possible for many things to be equally true. Armstrong and Bruyneel deserved what they got AND more of these guys should have faced stiffer punishments, AND Tygart had a vendetta against Armstrong. It's plainly clear to anyone who does not wear the Lance Armstrong fanboy jersey, OR those who are blinded by their hate for him. These guys need to STFU and go away, but so does Tyler "Buy My Book" Hamilton, Dirtbag Landis, Frankie Andreu... along with all these other guys who still have jobs in cycling. If you want to forget an era, get rid of ALL of them, not just the biggest, meanest jerks on the block.
    Why do Bruyneel and Armstrong deserve greater scrutiny than Contador?

    It's fundamentally unfair to subject different athletes at the same level of competition to different levels of scrutiny when enforcing the rules of competition.

    WADA went after Armstrong and Bruyneel with glee. They were saddened to have to suspend Contador - who rode on the same damn teams with Armstrong under Bruyneel. And Contador got busted for PED use while still competing, something Armstrong never did.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Why do Bruyneel and Armstrong deserve greater scrutiny than Contador?

    It's fundamentally unfair to subject different athletes at the same level of competition to different levels of scrutiny when enforcing the rules of competition.

    WADA went after Armstrong and Bruyneel with glee. They were saddened to have to suspend Contador - who rode on the same damn teams with Armstrong under Bruyneel. And Contador got busted for PED use while still competing, something Armstrong never did.
    Contador took his lumps and served his ban. Bruyneel and Armstrong did not come forward. They could have hired lawyers and try to get deals by coming forward with what they knew, but they did not.

    And since the beginning of time, co-conspirators have always been able to mitigate their criminal/otherwise exposure by "ratting". Somebody like Bruyneel deserves all the ban he can get, as honchos like him can make a team drug-free by their zero tolerance edicts. The guy cheated on every team he ran!

    And another thing that bugs me about people like Bruyneel is the fact they have guts to lie and write fake books like "we might as well win", knowing it's all baloney! And that smug look on his face on the book cover.
    Last edited by Jed19; 04-22-14 at 02:36 PM.
    Regards,

    Jed

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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    WADA went after Armstrong and Bruyneel with glee. They were saddened to have to suspend Contador - who rode on the same damn teams with Armstrong under Bruyneel. And Contador got busted for PED use while still competing, something Armstrong never did.
    WADA was never involved in the Armstrong or Bruyneel cases so I have no idea what you're taking about.

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    How about Hincapie ? Didn't he dope and lie about it for......17 years ?

    I am so sick of grown men crying like little babies about how Armstrong was a bully and was mean.

    Grow a sack you p*ssies.

  12. #12
    Digging in the pain cave. midschool22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikon Rep View Post
    How about Hincapie ? Didn't he dope and lie about it for......17 years ?
    You can read about it in his upcoming memoir...

    In The News: Hincapie dishes in upcoming memoir - VeloNews.com

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    Senior Member mprelaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midschool22 View Post
    You can read about it in his upcoming memoir...

    In The News: Hincapie dishes in upcoming memoir - VeloNews.com
    Clothing sales must be down.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Amusing to say the least.... the DS, the athletes all get criminalized but oddly there is never any mention of the main sponsors being indicted.
    And why not ?? They were the one's writing the checks and demanding that winning is all that mattered.... Can anyone with a modicum of intelligence really believe that US Postal did not know what the stakes were ?? It's a small community form the UCI down to the lowest teams.
    News travels very quickly and everyone knows what's up... Those who pretend they didn't are either lying, or have very private agenda's...

    We live in a society where doping is the norm rather than the exception, One cannot open a magazine, tune into a TV program, read a newspaper or go online without some kind of advertisement offering a remedy for whatever ailment, ( real or imagined ) that can be eliminated and once administered, one can then go out and conquer the world....

    Doping prevention begins with credible education at the youth level, not later in life when it has become an entrenched dogma....
    As a former coach in both Ski Racing and Cycling at the Junior levels, I wish I could say that the future is bright and clean but I'm highly skeptical.... I do still envision a playing field where winning at all costs is not the prevailing theme but rather what type of human athlete one becomes... One with honor, credibility, the will to succeed is natural, it has no need for artificial stimulation...
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

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    Sponsors are exactly that, SPONSORS. They foot the bill and hire the DS to run things.

    The only sponsor that one could clearly say is involved in systematic doping, knew about it and actively facilitated it is Thomas Weisel.
    Seems he got off without any real punishment.

    Bruyneel is a crybaby. As others have said, he had his chances. This was his choice to roll the dice, and now he's the scapegoat?
    I don't think so.

    The "everyone does it" defense doesn't work for speeding tickets either.
    When people start to whine about "everyone else", they look just like Bruyneel:

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
    They were the one's writing the checks and demanding that winning is all that mattered....
    Do you have a scintilla of evidence to back that up? Sponsors invest their money hoping for a return in terms of visibility, awareness, and increased sales. Vaughters and Vrooman have both written explaining the courting and retaining of sponsors and what they look for. Winning is low down on that list.

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    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Not whining, if that is your misinterpretation... It's a systemic problem and anyone can deny it, sugar coat the problem, hold up a handful of people and announce that changes are being implemented ... But that is not credible...
    If it was then how is it that this same scenario repeats itself every couple of years... ? ( Festina, Rabobank, Mapei, Phonak, etc... )
    Evidently the methodology of eradicating doping isn't working and never will until everyone is on board, from sponsors all the way to athletes and the public... The latter is certainly not without blame either...

    quote " Winning is low down on that list. ".. That is completely false... No Company no matter how big or small, is going to invest marketing dollars unless they can gauge a potentiall return.... Cervello Test Team ended and Garmin stepped in because of expected returns... Not from Charity or a higher calling....

    As far as concrete evidence, no I don't have any, hence why I'm not pointing fingers at individuals but rather enterprises and a system that is for lack of a better description ... Corrupt...
    Amateur sports and Professional sports are distinctly different although one isn't far behind the other...

    There's a number of things that are skewed in the Pro Cycling Game... One is the length of the season and the obligation for the riders to race UCI designated events or face fines and/or expulsion... That takes on a completely different viewpoint when it's your occupation as in earning a living.... Some may counter with " Well I go to work everyday ...! " but riding / racing a bike is not the same as punching a clock from 9 to 5 ...

    As far as Vaughters ???.... He was loudly claiming a NO DOPING policy all the while being a part of the problem...
    As I have said before, I love the sport, I have been around and in it since I was a kid, but there is a big problem and it's not just cycling.
    It's the business end of Pro sports and the amount of revenues gained or lost....
    If the belief is that sponsors enter Pro Sports marketing as naive and unaware of the realities..... Please... Let's go and read a few fables..
    No... Sponsors have a very clear picture of what they want, what they expect in return.... They are a business and survival and profitability in any business demands an acute knowledge of the landscape, so " NO " I don't buy the " We didn't know " when it really is " We didn't want to know " ......
    Last edited by Moyene Corniche; 05-05-14 at 10:20 AM.
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
    As far as Vaughters ???.... He was loudly claiming a NO DOPING policy all the while being a part of the problem...
    And what has this to do with him being able to explain what motivates sponsors? If you have any background in the sport, you'll remember that for the first few years of the team, Vaughters repeatedly said that successful placings were not his or his sponsors highest priority and he delivered results to back that up.

    And even if you discount Vaughters, how do you explain Vrooman saying essentially the same thing?
    Last edited by asgelle; 05-05-14 at 11:19 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote from the link above:

    "Drugs were so prevalent in that era that the decision itself, as our team saw it, was either play ball with everyone else or go home," Armstrong wrote. "And now the world knows what George and I chose, and we have to live with the consequences for the rest of our lives."

    The definition of "Professional" means ultimately to attempt being the best at what you do in the game you play. For most of those who have not ridden professionally, where there was a "code of silence" since the 70's in cycling, it will always be difficult to identify with the statement above.

    Read more here: Armstrong teammate Hincapie pens stark memoir - People Wires - MiamiHerald.com

  20. #20
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    And what has this to do with him being able to explain what motivates sponsors? If you have any background in the sport, you'll remember that for the first few years of the team, Vaughters repeatedly said that successful placings were not his or his sponsors highest priority and he delivered results to back that up.

    And even if you discount Vaughters, how do you explain Vrooman saying essentially the same thing?
    I certainly don't equate Vroomen as the same as Vaughters... One raced Pro the other never did. But that wasn't my point anyhow..
    You brought up Vaughters therefore I countered what you posted.... They may say successful results are not important but the reality is that the sponsors are in it for exposure... Exposure at it's prime dictates a team achieving results, plain and simple..
    As far as background in the sport... Raced here and in France as an amateur, I coached Juniors thru a well established program and I promoted a Stage Race for 5 years.... I do know the sport, promoting an event clearly enlightens you as to what sponsors want. Short term returns for their investment...

    I'm not going to crucify any of the rider's who have doped, based on the facts that the sport is extremely complex and the demands are way above normal demands.... I neither approve of it but the only way any of us can move forward is to look at it objectively...
    That certainly doesn't mean it is a pleasant reality but it is what it is and the question still remains to be answered...
    Or One of the questions should be, what do WADA, USADA, UCI have as private agenda's ??
    They have all declared No Tolerance for Doping but it seems the sport is still in a vicious circle....
    Explain that... When you consider that after the Festina circus it was declared we had turned a new page....
    Same as when several Dutch cyclists died. When it comes to Pro Sports, the Athlete's well being is not at the top of the page.... That's all...
    Last edited by Moyene Corniche; 05-05-14 at 06:13 PM.
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
    ... the reality is that the sponsors are in it for exposure...
    That is correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
    Exposure at it's prime dictates a team achieving results, plain and simple..
    That is not.

    It is foolish to think exposure is synonymous with winning races.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    Quote from the link above:

    "Drugs were so prevalent in that era that the decision itself, as our team saw it, was either play ball with everyone else or go home," Armstrong wrote. "And now the world knows what George and I chose, and we have to live with the consequences for the rest of our lives."

    The definition of "Professional" means ultimately to attempt being the best at what you do in the game you play. For most of those who have not ridden professionally, where there was a "code of silence" since the 70's in cycling, it will always be difficult to identify with the statement above.

    Read more here: Armstrong teammate Hincapie pens stark memoir - People Wires - MiamiHerald.com
    It's actually sad that everyone had to wear a mask, which speaks volume as to why the problem still persists at a high level.
    100 years of doping, I'm not surprised as to that statement and at what percentage it refers to...
    perhaps some day we'll know but I'm not expecting earth shattering revelations from past champions like Merckx, Moser, Indurain..
    But I would go as far as to surmise that cycling is less about doping than football or baseball, it is Pro Sports and it's not prim and proper...
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  23. #23
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    That is correct


    That is not.

    It is foolish to think exposure is synonymous with winning races.
    Fine believe what you will, but sponsors do want their brands represented at the podium. That is the reason they are in it.
    It is not out of altruistic reasons.... It is about business, commercialism, call it what you want... But all those riders on these teams represent their sponsors on their kit.
    They are not wearing them because it looks cute..... they are emblazoned with their logo's because that is their job...
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
    Fine believe what you will, but sponsors do want their brands represented at the podium. That is the reason they are in it.
    It is not out of altruistic reasons.... It is about business, commercialism, call it what you want... But all those riders on these teams represent their sponsors on their kit.
    They are not wearing them because it looks cute..... they are emblazoned with their logo's because that is their job...
    You continue to speak as though exposure only comes from podium appearances. Anyone who follows the sport nows this isn't true.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    You continue to speak as though exposure only comes from podium appearances. Anyone who follows the sport nows this isn't true.
    Exposure doesn't come only from podium appearances, but Yes ... Podium appearances are expected sooner rather than later... Not sure what language you would like that in... Results count tremendously especially when there is a board of directors to explain as to where the expenditures went and what were the returns...

    I'm beginning to believe that you view Pro Cycling thru rose colored romantic ideals. That it's a beautiful sport, we can all agree, that it is extremely photogenic is equally true, but there is the reasons why a team is a rolling billboard....
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

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