Lance: Life in Purgatory
10-21-14, 07:39 AM
#101
Senior Member
All are good points. You could take the top 20% competitors out of any sport and the competition would not change at all. Just the performances would be below what you would be expecting. There seems to be 2 distinct sides out there. On one side is the fan that wants to see records broken and unbelievable performances and doesn't care how they are accomplished. The other side is all about clean competitions and doesn't care if the performance suffers a bit because of it. Both sides want to see a fair and true competition. Is there any middle ground?
10-21-14, 08:14 AM
#102
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The argument is that it wasn't the dope that led to Festina and Lance, but the focus on dope. IOW, riders and teams doped for decades without spectacles like Festina and Lance. The obvious difference is the anti-doping crusade.
As for poor Tommy Simpson, yes, doping killed him. But it's quite possible that anti-doping rules led to the search for new drugs to replace the easily detectable amphetamines and steroids. Perhaps it would have been better to tolerate the very rare amphetamine death, as opposed to the page-long list of EPO deaths.
As for poor Tommy Simpson, yes, doping killed him. But it's quite possible that anti-doping rules led to the search for new drugs to replace the easily detectable amphetamines and steroids. Perhaps it would have been better to tolerate the very rare amphetamine death, as opposed to the page-long list of EPO deaths.
And it's kinda cute cute that you think cyclists wouldn't have discovered epo if only the testers had let them have as much speed as they wanted. Let's be clear, the primary attraction of EPO to cyclists was that it worked spectacularly well and effectively gave them 10 or 20 or 50% bigger lungs. The fact that it was so difficult to detect was just gravy. If it had turned their pee bright green they would've tried to use the old condom under the armpit trick a la Pollentier.
10-21-14, 09:05 AM
#103
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You did very well to spot the sarcasm.
I can't agree on the rest. The attitude in the 80s (and 70s, and 60s, etc) to drugs is what led to Festina and Lance, and Tom Simpson getting a statue on the Ventoux. If you just let them have at it, you get bad things happening. At least in the 70s and 80s though you could get the likes of Van Impe and Mottet who were, apparently, known even within the Peloton for being clean. You couldn't have that in the EPO era.
I can't agree on the rest. The attitude in the 80s (and 70s, and 60s, etc) to drugs is what led to Festina and Lance, and Tom Simpson getting a statue on the Ventoux. If you just let them have at it, you get bad things happening. At least in the 70s and 80s though you could get the likes of Van Impe and Mottet who were, apparently, known even within the Peloton for being clean. You couldn't have that in the EPO era.
10-21-14, 09:41 AM
#104
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The fact that it was so difficult to detect was just gravy. If it had turned their pee bright green they would've tried to use the old condom under the armpit trick a la Pollentier.
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10-22-14, 04:33 PM
#105
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USADA, USA Cycling conferring over Armstrong ban at Hincapie fondo - VeloNews.com
Looks like the USADA is trying to penalize Armstrong for riding Gran Fondo Hincapie. That's taking it a bit too far for me.
Looks like the USADA is trying to penalize Armstrong for riding Gran Fondo Hincapie. That's taking it a bit too far for me.
10-22-14, 05:03 PM
#106
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USADA, USA Cycling conferring over Armstrong ban at Hincapie fondo - VeloNews.com
Looks like the USADA is trying to penalize Armstrong for riding Gran Fondo Hincapie. That's taking it a bit too far for me.
Looks like the USADA is trying to penalize Armstrong for riding Gran Fondo Hincapie. That's taking it a bit too far for me.
10-22-14, 06:28 PM
#107
Senior Member
Let's see, a competitive event permitted by USAC (a WADA signatory). What argument is there that would let him compete?
10-22-14, 07:03 PM
#108
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"Because they are considered “non-competitive events,” and racing licenses are not required, gran fondos are difficult to police."
10-22-14, 07:34 PM
#109
Senior Member
"USA Cycling’s website lists the Hincapie Fondo as permitted as a “Fun Ride or Tour,” rather than a competitive event which has “agreed to submit results to the National Rankings System.”"
"Because they are considered “non-competitive events,” and racing licenses are not required, gran fondos are difficult to police."
"Because they are considered “non-competitive events,” and racing licenses are not required, gran fondos are difficult to police."
10-22-14, 07:41 PM
#110
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Didn't some loser get caught doping in a Gran Fondo a year or two ago?
10-22-14, 11:42 PM
#111
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All are good points. You could take the top 20% competitors out of any sport and the competition would not change at all. Just the performances would be below what you would be expecting. There seems to be 2 distinct sides out there. On one side is the fan that wants to see records broken and unbelievable performances and doesn't care how they are accomplished. The other side is all about clean competitions and doesn't care if the performance suffers a bit because of it. Both sides want to see a fair and true competition. Is there any middle ground?
I personally would like to see a move away from the tightly controlled, radio-in-every-ear snooze-fest that road racing is turning into, and back to the wider-open racing style of decades past. Doping just doesn't figure into it one way or another, for me - as long as I don't have to hear about it every five minutes.
10-23-14, 03:57 AM
#112
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10-23-14, 04:00 AM
#113
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10-23-14, 05:25 AM
#114
Beicwyr Hapus
Speaking only for myself, I want to see aggressive racing, sound tactics, and the occasional bit of heroics. The sport doesn't seem to offer nearly as much of that as it did a few decades ago, and to top it off, most coverage includes way to much discussion of doping.
I personally would like to see a move away from the tightly controlled, radio-in-every-ear snooze-fest that road racing is turning into, and back to the wider-open racing style of decades past. Doping just doesn't figure into it one way or another, for me - as long as I don't have to hear about it every five minutes.
I personally would like to see a move away from the tightly controlled, radio-in-every-ear snooze-fest that road racing is turning into, and back to the wider-open racing style of decades past. Doping just doesn't figure into it one way or another, for me - as long as I don't have to hear about it every five minutes.
Last edited by Gerryattrick; 10-23-14 at 05:29 AM.
10-23-14, 06:06 AM
#115
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Speaking only for myself, I want to see aggressive racing, sound tactics, and the occasional bit of heroics. The sport doesn't seem to offer nearly as much of that as it did a few decades ago, and to top it off, most coverage includes way to much discussion of doping.
I personally would like to see a move away from the tightly controlled, radio-in-every-ear snooze-fest that road racing is turning into, and back to the wider-open racing style of decades past. Doping just doesn't figure into it one way or another, for me - as long as I don't have to hear about it every five minutes.
I personally would like to see a move away from the tightly controlled, radio-in-every-ear snooze-fest that road racing is turning into, and back to the wider-open racing style of decades past. Doping just doesn't figure into it one way or another, for me - as long as I don't have to hear about it every five minutes.
10-23-14, 08:40 AM
#116
Senior Member
If you look closely, you might see that behavior correlates much more to rampant drug use than to radios, but radios make a nice smokescreen.
10-23-14, 09:15 AM
#117
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Give them something like the Amber Alert System that sends safety/weather bulletins into their ear. Otherwise, they need to ride their own races and more importantly make the race decisions themselves.
Last edited by seypat; 10-23-14 at 09:33 AM.
10-23-14, 12:17 PM
#118
Senior Member
The worst behaviour from Armstrong was the way he treated Greg Lemond, the Andreus and Emma O'Reilly. The way he went about destroying Greg Lemond's reputation was simply evil and it shows that he had no honour or love of cycling.
10-23-14, 12:29 PM
#119
Senior Member
The EPO etc Armstrong was doing in the years before his cancer didn't make him the best climber, but it did make him competitive in one day classics and some flatter TdF stages. After the cancer he became a far better climber.....that might have been helped by better doping, but maybe his leaner frame also helped.
10-23-14, 04:19 PM
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I have to disagree. The actual racers don't have control of the race anymore. It is orchestrated from the team car and the race director. If a somebody(GC contender) were to try to go off the front, it is immediately relayed and dealt with. If that same somebody has a flat or mechanical, same thing happens. The radio crackles and back go some team riders to bring him back to the fold. There is no more confusion. Nobody gets hung out to dry except for Talansky this year. And that was because he was out of contention.
Give them something like the Amber Alert System that sends safety/weather bulletins into their ear. Otherwise, they need to ride their own races and more importantly make the race decisions themselves.
Give them something like the Amber Alert System that sends safety/weather bulletins into their ear. Otherwise, they need to ride their own races and more importantly make the race decisions themselves.
The Tour of Britain was very entertaining because there were no radios and teams consisted of only 6 riders, not 9. It was very hard for a team to control the race, and the riders really had to figure it out on their own, and sometimes they didn't get it right, which led to some real excitement and changes in the GC order.
I do understand it would be tough to replicate this in a 21 stage race compared to the 9 in this tour, but I think I enjoyed this format better.
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10-24-14, 02:37 AM
#123
Beicwyr Hapus
10-24-14, 06:16 AM
#124
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Do those two have Zachary's Disease? That must be why the are hiding their heads.
Urban Dictionary: Ed Zachary Disease
Urban Dictionary: Ed Zachary Disease
10-24-14, 10:03 AM
#125
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Apparently the decision of USA Cycling is that Lance cannot ride Hincapie's ride. USA Cycling: Under WADA Code, Armstrong cannot ride Hincapie fondo - VeloNews.com
I'd ride it anyway...public road and all.
I'd ride it anyway...public road and all.