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Old 07-17-14, 02:28 PM   #1
DLBroox
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How can a sprinter be in green with no wins?

I really don't understand how a rider can be the leader in the green jersey without having won a stage set-up for a sprinter to win. What am I not understanding?

Also, and I've wanted to ask this forever, at the end of a super close race, when the sprinters lunge and push forward on the handlebars, that really doesn't actually do anything does it? It's not like you can stretch the bike out.


edit: I'm so sorry if the title of the thread is a spoiler. I didn't think about it until the minute after I posted. If a mod is around and wants to change the title please do.

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Old 07-17-14, 02:40 PM   #2
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It's not number of stage wins. It's points per stage.

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Plus a bunch of points at the intermediate sprints.

It's not unheard of for the green jersey to not win a stage. Sean Kelly won his last Tour stage in 1982, the same year he won the first of his 4 green jerseys. Zabel won green with no stage wins in 98 and 99.

He still has half a Tour to go, though with a lot of mountains to get over.
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Old 07-17-14, 02:58 PM   #3
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I really don't understand how a rider can be the leader in the green jersey without having won a stage set-up for a sprinter to win. What am I not understanding?
It's common to call the green jersey the sprinter's contest, but its real name is the Points Classification. What you don't understand is how the points system works.



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Also, and I've wanted to ask this forever, at the end of a super close race, when the sprinters lunge and push forward on the handlebars, that really doesn't actually do anything does it? It's not like you can stretch the bike out.
Yes, this is an established technique, informally called "throwing the bike". <--- googleable phrase.
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Old 07-17-14, 06:22 PM   #4
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Also, and I've wanted to ask this forever, at the end of a super close race, when the sprinters lunge and push forward on the handlebars, that really doesn't actually do anything does it? It's not like you can stretch the bike out.

.
Yes you can.
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Old 07-17-14, 07:29 PM   #5
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While I know Sagan was never a pure sprinter, he appears to have lost a stroke or two in the sprints as of late.

I can understand him not beating the "big boy" sprinters like Kittel, Cav or Greipel, but he can't seem to win even when these guys are out of contention. Yesterdays stage and todays were tailor made for him and he still couldn't get it done.


Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
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Old 07-17-14, 08:28 PM   #6
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Sagan should have won today. IMO he lost today because his leadout train broke up, and Sagan wound up too far back.
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Old 07-17-14, 08:40 PM   #7
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Thanks guys. I understand the points now. And throwing the bike is fascinating!

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Old 07-17-14, 09:01 PM   #8
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Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
No, he was just not as good a sprinter as everyone thinks. He's really good at 2nd-4th though. LOL.

I think he's trying to become a classics rider like Fabian.
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Old 07-17-14, 10:29 PM   #9
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A couple different things going on w/ Sagan, I think.

First, he is contesting the win on many or most of the stages. A pure sprinter does as little work as possible in every stage that doesn't look likely to end with a bunch sprint. Sagan is burning a ton of energy almost everyday, and not getting many recovery days.

Second, he is so feared that everyone in the finishing bunch is working against him. Whenever he goes, everyone marks him, he's never given an inch.

Third, his team is weak. Notice he always ends up isolated in the leading bunch, no teammate to work with, and he never has a leadout train.

Fourth, he is not a pure sprinter. When equally fresh, on a flat finish Sagan is maybe the 10th fastest sprinter in the Tour. When he is tired from contesting stage after stage, Sagan is slower. When he has gone up against pure sprinters and beats them at the line, it is often in uphill finishes.

Fifth, he does seem to have just a touch less form this year than last, although I may be imagining it, but it seemed that way from the classics.
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Old 07-18-14, 05:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
While I know Sagan was never a pure sprinter, he appears to have lost a stroke or two in the sprints as of late.

I can understand him not beating the "big boy" sprinters like Kittel, Cav or Greipel, but he can't seem to win even when these guys are out of contention. Yesterdays stage and todays were tailor made for him and he still couldn't get it done.


Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
As you say he was never a pure sprinter, I wouldn't read too much into two narrow misses. No athlete can be on top form all the time.

Yes I do think he's trying to develop into an all rounder capable of winning major stage races like P-N. If he can win a P-N then he has a realistic chance of competing for a podium place in the Tour, Giro or Vuelta.
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Old 07-18-14, 07:53 AM   #11
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If you can win a yellow jersey w/o a stage win; then I don't see the confusion with winning the green jersey.

Sagan is winning because he's always in the mix, he's very consistent.

Cheetahs are the fastest land animal, but still they get their food stolen by hyenas. Just because you're a specialist doesn't mean you're the winner in the end. In many ways being a specialist is very much a weakness.
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Old 07-18-14, 10:00 AM   #12
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Second, he is so feared that everyone in the finishing bunch is working against him. Whenever he goes, everyone marks him, he's never given an inch.
That's what I was thinking, basically he's singled himself out against every other rider in the peloton.
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Old 07-18-14, 10:10 AM   #13
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If you can win a yellow jersey w/o a stage win; then I don't see the confusion with winning the green
I was confused because of comments like this from the New York Times this morning: .."Sagan, who holds the green jersey as the best sprinter,"

The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
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Old 07-18-14, 10:56 AM   #14
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I was confused because of comments like this from the New York Times this morning: .."Sagan, who holds the green jersey as the best sprinter,"

The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
It has traditionally been a sprinter that wins it, and the scoring system is weighted in favour of points gathered on flat stages rather than up in the high mountains or in Time Trials. So it's no erroneous to say it's "the best sprinter's jersey."

And Sagan has definitely been the most consistent sprinter. He has 4 2nd places and 5 more top 10s, always having to win a sprint to get that. No other sprinter is close to that. Kittel has his 3 wins, but he's been nowhere in any stage since.
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Old 07-19-14, 07:26 AM   #15
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This a little better than NYT at describing it 2014 Tour de France Green-Jersey Points Competition Contenders | Bicycling Magazine
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Old 07-19-14, 11:46 AM   #16
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The physics of 'throwing the bike" are that when the rider shifts his weight aft on the bike, the bike itself shifts forward to maintain the same CG.

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Old 07-19-14, 08:52 PM   #17
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Yes, this is an established technique, informally called "throwing the bike". <--- googleable phrase.
And crucial to winning (or not losing) close races.
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Old 07-21-14, 06:47 AM   #18
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I was confused because of comments like this from the New York Times this morning: .."Sagan, who holds the green jersey as the best sprinter,"
The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
That's what you get for reading the Times...

Great sports paper, the Times.
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Old 07-21-14, 07:36 AM   #19
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That's what you get for reading the Times...

Great sports paper, the Times.
Interesting that the link Work4bike provided says exactly the same thing in their first sentence. Maybe the Times used it as source material. "The battle for yellow may not start until the mountains, but every stage counts for the green jersey, given to the best overall sprinter."

I'm sorry that my reading of something other than VeloNews offends you.
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Old 07-21-14, 08:35 AM   #20
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Being able to get over the intermediate climbs and being fast enough to place in the bunch sprints is a pretty hard to beat cobination for a green jersey contender. Sagan might not have to collect another point.
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Old 07-21-14, 08:42 AM   #21
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Yeah, the fact that Sagan was third on Stage 15 in front of many quality sprinters is why he is well deserving of the Green.
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Old 07-21-14, 09:16 AM   #22
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Being able to get over the intermediate climbs and being fast enough to place in the bunch sprints is a pretty hard to beat combination for a green jersey contender. Sagan might not have to collect another point.
Funny how, at almost every intermediate sprint Coquard jumps out ahead and then looks directly at Sagan as if he's shown Peter who is who...then at the finish line Sagan creams him repeatedly. He must know he's not in Sagan's league, but is doing this in case Peter crashes out.

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Old 07-21-14, 11:26 AM   #23
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The green jersey competition is over, but Sagan finishing the tour with this jersey and no stage wins will be a huge disappointment to him and the team. The early stage in England where he didn't respond to Nibali's final attack at the finish, instead looking around for someone else to lead him up to Nibali, was a huge blunder.

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Old 07-21-14, 11:41 AM   #24
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The green jersey competition is over, but Sagan finishing the tour with this jersey and no stage wins will be a huge disappointment to him and the team. The early stage in England where he didn't respond to Nibali's final attack at the finish, instead looking around for someone else to lead him up to Nibali, was a huge blunder.

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It wasn't a case of waiting for someone else to lead him up. It was that everybody else was waiting for him to react and close the gap for them. It was the same thing when Gallopin won; the 2 others in the break didn't want to help Sagan, so when Gallopin made his move the 3 of them stopped and watched him go. He's a marked man, so nobody's going to work with him in small breaks close to the finish.

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Being able to get over the intermediate climbs and being fast enough to place in the bunch sprints is a pretty hard to beat cobination for a green jersey contender. Sagan might not have to collect another point.
He already has nearly double points that Cavendish won green with in 2011. All he has to do now is finish the Tour and he's won.
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Old 07-21-14, 12:16 PM   #25
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It wasn't a case of waiting for someone else to lead him up. It was that everybody else was waiting for him to react and close the gap for them.
Whether it was Sagan waiting on others or others waiting on Sagan, the result is the same - no one chased down Nibali. The point is that Sagan didn't have the luxury to wait around and see if someone else would help him - at this juncture in the race, he had to suck it up and do the work himself. He didn't and he lost a stage that was custom-tailored for him to win. Huge blunder.

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