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  1. #26
    Senior Member Rich Gibson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    So the original accusation was he is finishing every stage looking 'fresh', but once it is pointed out that he was exhausted on one stage that serves just as well as 'evidence'

    ....
    Your remarks cherry pick the arguments to substantiate your position. The sequence is what's important; you ignore that. The first hill stage he looked tired. Every hill stage since then he seems to have an inexhaustible source of energy to catch and overcome those in front...even when it isn't really necessary.

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Gibson View Post
    Your remarks cherry pick the arguments to substantiate your position. The sequence is what's important; you ignore that. The first hill stage he looked tired. Every hill stage since then he seems to have an inexhaustible source of energy to catch and overcome those in front...even when it isn't really necessary.

    Rich
    The simple explanation there might be that in the first summit finish he had to follow Contador, but that there aren't any Contador-level climbers left in the race. I'm always a lot more tired after a ride when I follow guys faster than me than when I lead guys slower than me.

  3. #28
    Pseudo Retro Grouch bici_mania's Avatar
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    Seeing Nibali ride I have wondered if he is doping. I suspect he is but I also suspect at least 30% of the peloton. Of course I don't know that and want to think they're all racing clean. Until I read about failed tests or evidence surfacing that suggest they are, I choose to believe they are clean.
    Life is like a ten speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use. - Charles M. Schulz

  4. #29
    Senior Member Astrozombie's Avatar
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    Skeptical? Or Paranoid?
    Assume nothing; Question everything

  5. #30
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
    The simple explanation there might be that in the first summit finish he had to follow Contador, but that there aren't any Contador-level climbers left in the race. I'm always a lot more tired after a ride when I follow guys faster than me than when I lead guys slower than me.
    If we use the last decade or more as evidence, the simplest explanation is that he is doping.


    Although I think that the last two years of this race were more suspicious than this years. I feel it is entirely possible and probable that Nibaldi is riding clean, just riding very well compared to the ones that are left.
    "Even people opposed to religion need calm minds and compassion to make their work more effective."

  6. #31
    Senior Member Giacomo 1's Avatar
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    Only 9 posts on the stage 15 thread, while we are up to 30 here, and this number will surely grow.

    Will cycling fans ever stop flagellating themselves over the doping issue and just revel and enjoy the beauty, speed and tenacity and the glory that the TDF is?

    C'mon, save this crap for later, lets talk racing!
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  7. #32
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
    The simple explanation there might be that in the first summit finish he had to follow Contador, but that there aren't any Contador-level climbers left in the race. I'm always a lot more tired after a ride when I follow guys faster than me than when I lead guys slower than me.
    Yup. Makes a huge difference whose pace the climb is made at and if racing just where the action starts, as in whose favored terrain it is in. Much harder (perhaps more mentally than physically) to have to respond to others attacks.

    Note that when Nibali has attacked he really has not been able to keep piling it on. He has gotten most of it in the first km after attacking and then just holds it.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  8. #33
    Team Water Andy_K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
    Only 9 posts on the stage 15 thread, while we are up to 30 here, and this number will surely grow.

    Will cycling fans ever stop flagellating themselves over the doping issue and just revel and enjoy the beauty, speed and tenacity and the glory that the TDF is?

    C'mon, save this crap for later, lets talk racing!
    Agreed. Somebody asked me recently if I thought the riders, as a group, were still doping. My response was that I enjoy the tour a lot more if I tell myself they aren't doping. Since I honestly don't have any way of knowing whether they are doping or not, I'm really free to choose either option as what I believe. So I believe they aren't doping. If it turns out later I was wrong, there will still be plenty of time to be indignant. If I were to let myself think that they are doping and it turned out later that I was wrong I couldn't go back and enjoy the tour after the fact.

    The key here is that you don't need to convince yourself that they aren't doping. You only need to convince yourself that you don't know, and since you don't that shouldn't be such a tall order.

    Glass half-empty / glass half-full / glass of delicious beverage -- take your pick.

  9. #34
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    You have to give him credit. He is doing all he can on the bike to get a victory. He's rolling up his sleeves and getting his hands dirty. And he is taking the race to the other riders. Clean or not, he is working hard and earning his place.

  10. #35
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    I have no reason to believe bike racing isn't like most every other sport. Most of the athletes will do whatever they can to gain any perceived edge while staying just inside the boundaries of the rules and/or the enforcement abilities. Occasionally straying over the line, especially as enforcement is always improving. I see it just part of sports and it doesn't impact my enjoyment of the contest at hand.
    Last edited by jon c.; 07-21-14 at 09:58 PM.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Space Pope's Avatar
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    We'll never know until he tests positive but you can't detect blood transfusions (I think). Anyway I'm disappointed Nairo Quintana isn't in the tour this time around. With Froome and Contador out, I think he could have been the favorite.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
    We'll never know until he tests positive but you can't detect blood transfusions (I think). Anyway I'm disappointed Nairo Quintana isn't in the tour this time around. With Froome and Contador out, I think he could have been the favorite.
    That's the exact purpose of the biological passport, though, isn't it? Blood transfusions would show up as irregularities/spikes in a bio passport test, hence Kreuziger not starting the Tour.

    You'd have to hope that next year's Tour sees Nibali, Quintana, Froome and Contador all fit, in form, and upright (and clean). It could be an epic battle.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
    I have no reason to believe bike racing isn't like most every other sport. Most of the athletes will do whatever they can to gain any perceived edge while staying just inside the boundaries of the rules and/or the enforcement abilities. Occasionally straying over the line, especially as enforcement is always improving. I see it just part of sports and it doesn't impact my enjoyment of the contest at hand.
    Unfortunately, that's the culture we live in today. It is acceptable for some unknown reason. Look at two of the commercials we are bombarded with during the telecast. The Jelly Belly and GNC ads. While those may be only energy supplements, the tone and essence of the ads is pure doping. "Take these and put them through your body and you will excel." The Jelly Belly one is really bad. They eat some of those beans and presto, look at them go!

  14. #39
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    I don't think it's today's culture though. I think it's human nature and believe the ancient greek athletes likely were taking potions of herbs or other substances they thought would help.

  15. #40
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    Speaking of culture shock, I went to my first triathlon about a month ago. Now, I have always been a run and jump athlete involved in traditional sports. But at 49 years old, Father Time and injuries have forced me out of those. So endurance sports are all that's left. So here I am at the triathlon, and all the participants have skeleton bodies with all of the fat stripped off of them. I'm thinking "how do these people make it through the race with no energy reserves?" Then the race starts and these people are popping energy supplements throughout the race like they are crack addicts! I'm thinking WTF, I thought these were supposed to be endurance events. That's the definition of a PED if I ever saw one. Take away the energy supplements and how far could these zombies go?

    Sorry for the thread hijack.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by seypat View Post
    Speaking of culture shock, I went to my first triathlon about a month ago. Now, I have always been a run and jump athlete involved in traditional sports. But at 49 years old, Father Time and injuries have forced me out of those. So endurance sports are all that's left. So here I am at the triathlon, and all the participants have skeleton bodies with all of the fat stripped off of them. I'm thinking "how do these people make it through the race with no energy reserves?" Then the race starts and these people are popping energy supplements throughout the race like they are crack addicts! I'm thinking WTF, I thought these were supposed to be endurance events. That's the definition of a PED if I ever saw one. Take away the energy supplements and how far could these zombies go?

    Sorry for the thread hijack.
    That's how endurance athletes roll... and that's also why they don't live long.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dm83 View Post
    That's how endurance athletes roll... and that's also why they don't live long.
    That ended up being my first tri, ....and my last.

  18. #43
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    The field is really weak, it's not strange at all that he's dominating. You should start wondering when he outclimbs Froome, Contador or Quintana by 4+ minutes.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by paperbackwriter View Post
    The field is really weak, it's not strange at all that he's dominating. You should start wondering when he outclimbs Froome, Contador or Quintana by 4+ minutes.
    Where has he out climbed anyone by 4 minutes. He picked up more than 2 minutes on the cobbles and has picked up additional time on numerous other occasions.

  20. #45
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paperbackwriter View Post
    The field is really weak, it's not strange at all that he's dominating. You should start wondering when he outclimbs Froome, Contador or Quintana by 4+ minutes.
    LOL...think you can hang with that weak field?

    Fans are the best. No matter what happens they are not happy.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
    LOL...think you can hang with that weak field?

    Fans are the best. No matter what happens they are not happy.
    It's quite clear what he means by that. We all know that Nibali might (or might not) be sitting in 4th place right now if the other 3 he named were still in the race. So it's stupid to claim he's doping because he happens to be the best of the riders still standing.

  22. #47
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
    It's quite clear what he means by that. We all know that Nibali might (or might not) be sitting in 4th place right now if the other 3 he named were still in the race. So it's stupid to claim he's doping because he happens to be the best of the riders still standing.
    That's why they call it a race. The first one to the line wins.

    If the other guys are stupid or crash, tough sh##.

    Having been a bike racer, I appreciate the effort EVERYONE is making and realize that the same bad stuff can happen to Nibali.

    People should appreciate what is being done instead of whining about what's not occurring.

    want to see something that really sucks??

    Indianapolis 500 final lap - 29 May 2011 - JR Hildebrand crash - YouTube

    BTW...be sure to watch 30 in 30 tonight on ESPN at 8pm
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  23. #48
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    I meant 4+ in the whole race.

    Also, where have I said that Nibali is an undeserving winner? Luck is a part of it, just like bike handling skills and countless other factors. I've just said that the fact that he outclimbs Alejandro Valverde who has never in his whole career been good in the Tour de France and bunch of other guys who are not among best climbers in the world doesn't mean that he's doping

  24. #49
    Senior Member brianmcg123's Avatar
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    I hate to break it too you, but none of them are clean.
    Everyone's a roadie, they just might not know it yet.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bauhaus92 View Post
    Day after day of constant attacks that just blow away the field. He's not even laboring when he attacks. He crosses the line with all the poise of a dignitary, while others behind him are gasping for the last breath in their lungs. I quote Rodriguez the other day; I thought that I could win, that was my intention. More or less I felt good but I was missing something to be able to follow Nibali. He passed me like an aeroplane,

    Hmmmm What was he missing?

    Please help me, I don't want to be a skeptic.
    A good dose of skepticism is healthy. I'd recommend against becoming a cynic however.
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