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why is Lemond being a jerk?

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why is Lemond being a jerk?

Old 01-29-15, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Anyone who had gotten themselves into that position would have done the same thing. Lance, or any other athlete or anyone caught doing a crime, would not fail to use the available laws to their maximum advantage knowingly. He didn't come clean because he wanted to, he did it because he had to. So, of course, he's going to do it in a way that is most advantageous. So would any of us if we were in the same situation. I don't see that as a problem. Would probably been nice to force him into a different time line, but that didn't happen and he got to choose some of the timing to his advantage. So what?

So I guess it's pretty easy to sit here and be righteous about thinking he - Armstrong - should come clean in a way that causes him maximum pain. But that's naive and foolish. Few among us would have accepted the punishment any differently if push came to shove, I'm sure. It's like when my attorney tells me when I want to go after someone "on principle." He'll push his yellow pad across the table to me and tell me to write that down so that when he sends me the invoice for his time chasing that down, he'll have that to remind me of what I wanted to be done. I'm sure Lance's attorneys told him exactly the same thing - "If you are going to go public with this, then do it according to this schedule because it's beneficial to you." And he took that advice just like pretty much every rational person in his situation would.

Is Lance a good guy? No. And he's going to take it right in the cheeks no matter what. At this point, the question of him getting away with a doping fraud is answered. He didn't, it's hurt him deeply and the hurt isn't done. He did make some moves to cover himself at some level tactically, but overall he got whacked.

He was/is a great cyclist. Sociopath? Not my area of expertise. I'll just leave it with him being a complete world class jerk.

J.
No. First, probably nobody on the entire forum would do so much to cover their tracks, in spite of his level of indiscretion. In fact, its pretty unprecedented in all of sport I believe. I will stand corrected if you can site another example as viscous. And there has been rampant cheating in sport with drug use to perform better. So we disagree there. For one thing its stupid. Anybody with an IQ above 80 would know that that tactic was doomed to fail. That level of corruption is bound to implode. You can't threaten and destroy others lives leaving them with nowhere to go without retaliation because that is what hard working men left with nothing will do. Lemond's indignance was he knew Armstrong raced dirty because he knew it wasn't possible to ride like that without. He would know. So lesson learned is....ruining lives has consequences.

You say not your area of expertise to determine sociopathic behavior.

This might help...definition:

A person with antisocial personality disorder. Probably the most widely recognized personality disorder. A sociopath is often well liked because of their charm and high charisma, but they do not usually care about other people. They think mainly of themselves and often blame others for the things that they do. They have a complete disregard for rules and lie constantly. They seldom feel guilt or learn from punishments. Though some sociopaths have become murders, most reveal their sociopathy through less deadly and sensational means.
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Old 01-29-15, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jyl
LeMond started riding professionally in the early 1980s, with Renault, then teamed up with Hinault at La Vie Claire to win his first Tour in 1986. That was before EPO was used for doping - Epogen was not even sold by Amgen until 1989, and it took awhile for athletes to start using it for performance enhancement. That started sometime in the early to mid 1990s. And wide spread blood doping came even later, after a test to detect Epogen was developed, which was in 2000.

So it is pretty clear that the Tours of the 1980s and early 1990s were won "clean" - well, there were amphetamines and so on, but they aren't anything close to Epogen (and other synthetic erthypoetin) and blood transfusions in their effectiveness.

In the early and mid 1990s, riders who were at the top of the sport suddenly found themselves being dropped like used tissues. Andy Hampsten for example. LeMond was finished by then, his body was breaking down, the shotgun pellets weren't helping. His three Tours and two World Championships were indisputably done without Epogen and, as far as anyone can know, without other doping. You better believe Lance would have uncovered evidence against LeMond if there was anything to find - he was (is?) worth $100MM and that hires lots of investigators.
Good post.
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Old 01-29-15, 08:12 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
No. First, probably nobody on the entire forum would do so much to cover their tracks, in spite of his level of indiscretion. In fact, its pretty unprecedented in all of sport I believe. I will stand corrected if you can site another example as viscous. And there has been rampant cheating in sport with drug use to perform better. So we disagree there. For one thing its stupid. Anybody with an IQ above 80 would know that that tactic was doomed to fail. That level of corruption is bound to implode. You can't threaten and destroy others lives leaving them with nowhere to go without retaliation because that is what hard working men left with nothing will do. Lemond's indignance was he knew Armstrong raced dirty because he knew it wasn't possible to ride like that without. He would know. So lesson learned is....ruining lives has consequences.

You say not your area of expertise to determine sociopathic behavior.

This might help...definition:

A person with antisocial personality disorder. Probably the most widely recognized personality disorder. A sociopath is often well liked because of their charm and high charisma, but they do not usually care about other people. They think mainly of themselves and often blame others for the things that they do. They have a complete disregard for rules and lie constantly. They seldom feel guilt or learn from punishments. Though some sociopaths have become murders, most reveal their sociopathy through less deadly and sensational means.
My reply was strictly limited to the timing of his response about probably doping again. If you look further back in what I've written, I've said that any of the other civil and/or criminal acts that he committed should be dealt with accordingly and he should pay the price for them if found guilty. Other than that, he's definitely paying for what he did at some level. I guess what I'm concerned about is that he pay the same price that others have or that others who do what he did do pay a commensurate price as well.

As far as "sociopath" designations go, I'm curious where you went to medical school and where you did your residency in psychiatry. Without that, it's a slippery slope to go around labeling people with mental illness designations that you've discovered on the internet.

J.
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Old 01-29-15, 12:05 PM
  #104  
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Agree. Tiger is a big loser. I laugh every game he looses.
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Old 01-29-15, 04:27 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Domane
Just who was Lemonds Doctor back in the day? Has anyone ever found out? Funny that anytime anyone does better then Lemond he accuses them of cheating and doping as if only Greg Lemond is the only one who is good enough to put out a great performance.

Armstrong's era was full of people doping, so what, our doper beat your doper get over it. The only thing everyone accomplished by the stripping of Armstrong's TDF titles is to put a big black eye on the sport as evidenced by there now being no winners for those seven years. No matter how much Greg Lemond and his fan boys want to cry, Armstrong did something that Lemond was not able to do and that was win the TDF seven years in a row.

As for the Lemond/Trek deal, if you owned the bike company and your new rider was now winning multiple TDF titles would you not want to capitalize on that and find that is time to move on from Lemond, who started attacking Armstrong and Trek. The simple answer is yes you would have dropped Lemond in a heart beat.

I have no doubt in my mind that Lemond doped in his time and just never got caught and funny how he makes such a stink today when he knows there are no remaining samples for anyone to test on him. Lets face it Lemond was in races where he was bombing out and he claims that a some iron shot fixed him. More like some dope he took fixed him to go from can't keep up to no one would keep up with Lemond. Sorry but iron shots don't have that kind of healing power.

Who was your doctor back then Greg Lemond?

Before the Lemond fan boys call me a Lance fan boy, I don't give a crap about either Lemond or Armstrong. The fact is Greg Lemond was hardly clean in his day at the top either. Who from his era is going to speak up and surely Greg Lemond will continue the façade that he never took any drugs now that it has been established that they can go back and take all your wins away even the ones past the so called statute of limitations as they did with Armstrong.

About the only thing Greg Lemond really does is run around crying about everything in his attempt to try and convince everyone he is the best cyclist to ever mount a bike when the facts are many have done things that Lemond could only ever dream of doing.
Dude, you speak with the jawbone of an ass. "The fact is Greg Lemond was hardly clean...." Where do you get your "facts"? Please cite us your source. And it was lead shot, not iron shot, which definitely will leach into the body.
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Old 01-29-15, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
My reply was strictly limited to the timing of his response about probably doping again. If you look further back in what I've written, I've said that any of the other civil and/or criminal acts that he committed should be dealt with accordingly and he should pay the price for them if found guilty. Other than that, he's definitely paying for what he did at some level. I guess what I'm concerned about is that he pay the same price that others have or that others who do what he did do pay a commensurate price as well.

As far as "sociopath" designations go, I'm curious where you went to medical school and where you did your residency in psychiatry. Without that, it's a slippery slope to go around labeling people with mental illness designations that you've discovered on the internet.

J.
One doesn't need a degree is psychiatry to figure this one out. Actually Clinical Social Workers and Psychologist are way better trained in diagnostics than psychiatrists. The formal diagnosis in Lance's case would be Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Enough is known about the guy to make this conclusion.
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Old 01-29-15, 05:14 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by thehammerdog
I read that he is still after Lance who now we all know came clean. I just also read that others from that time are saying that the UCI med doctor was also in on the drug game. If most of the top guys are all guilty as charged and as we know they could not give the medals to any of the top guys for the 7 years of Lance rule, let's just say they all did it to compete so all are bad and move on.
Lemond who is now borderline Obese is out to get Lance. Lemond was a great champion during HIS time. Lance was the best at his time (cheating was allowed) so now we have a cleaner bunch but not clean all around.
Move on Gregg.....you are fast becoming more of a jerk.
You need to grow up. If you really believe what you've written you need therapy.
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Old 01-29-15, 05:24 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by bruce19
You need to grow up. If you really believe what you've written you need therapy.
Please elaborate. Just name calling is childish...all the men on the TDF podium were dirty during that time.
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Old 01-29-15, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by whitemax
Dude, you speak with the jawbone of an ass. "The fact is Greg Lemond was hardly clean...." Where do you get your "facts"? Please cite us your source. And it was lead shot, not iron shot, which definitely will leach into the body.
Me thinks you should take long hard look in the mirror slick.

Notice the dates in this section below and try and tell me Lemond was clean and beating others who were doping. Yeah right. Lemond doped no doubt about it. Armstrong's era just took doping to the next level and when one got caught they were offered deals to turn in the others. Doping is still going on today just as it went on during Lemond's day. By the way genius I was not talking about him being shot but rather his excuse for why he suddenly went from also ran in a race to world beater by saying he was given B-12 shots and Iron shots. Sorry but that dog don't hunt.

Notice also the date for EPO use and deaths attributed to EPO in the late 1980's. Gee was that not during part of the Greg Lemond era. Are you really still going to try and pass off that Greg Lemond was able to beat cyclists using EPO?
Cycling
Cycling plays a central role in the explosion of stimulant use in sport after
World War Two. Ludwig Prokop (1970: 46) describes cycling competitions of
that era as 'special hotbeds of doping.' Of 25 urine samples taken from riders
in a 1955 race, five were positive for stimulants. In the 1960 Rome Olympic
Games, Knud Jensen, a 23-year-old Danish cyclist, collapsed during
competition and died. Autopsy results revealed the presence of
amphetamines (Donohoe & Johnson, 1986). During the thirteenth leg of the
1967 Tour de France, English cyclist Tom Simpson, 29, collapsed and died.
His autopsy showed high levels of methamphetamine, 'a vial of which had
been found in his pocket at the time of his death' (Gilbert, 1969b: 37). The
impact of Simpson's death was extensive, in part because 'this was the first
doping death to be televised' (Donohoe & Johnson, 1986: 8). His death
substantially added to the mounting pressure on the IOC and member
federations to establish doping control programs, which they did at the end of
1967 (Ferstle, 2000). One year later another cyclist, Yves Mottin, died from
'excessive amphetamine use' two days after winning a race (Todd & Todd,
2001:69).
Tests conducted on Belgian cyclists in 1965 showed that 37 per cent of
professionals and 23 per cent of amateurs were using amphetamines, while
reports from Italy showed that 46 per cent of professional cyclists tested
positive for doping (Donohoe & Johnson, 1986). In 1967 Jacques Anquetil, a
five-time winner of the Tour de France, stated:
For 50 years bike racers have been taking stimulants. Obviously
we can do without them in a race, but then we will pedal 15 miles
an hour [instead of 25]. Since we are constantly asked to go
faster and to make even greater efforts, we are obliged to take
stimulants (qf. Gilbert, 1969b: 32).
Longtime team masseur for professional cycling, Willy Voet,
summarised the past forty years of doping in cycling by describing the three
drug eras of the sport: amphetamines in the 1960s and 1970s, anabolic
steroids and cortisone in the 1980s, and, thereafter, hGH and erythropoietin
(EPO) (Swift, 1999). In fact, there is strong speculation that more than a
dozen deaths of elite cyclists that took place the late 1980s were the result of
the use of EPO (Ramotar, 1990; Fisher, 1991).
The breadth and depth of the level of doping in the cycling world were
exposed to full public view in 1998 when Voet was arrested by French
customs police for transporting performance-enhancing drugs. Voet began
detailing the use of drugs in cycling, and a large-scale investigation by both
French and Italian authorities, as well as by a number of journalists, ensued.
The results of these investigations implicated many of the top teams and
riders in the sport as part of a highly organised, sophisticated and long-lived
doping scheme (USA Today, 1998d: 3C; Swift, 1999). Just hours before the
2000 Tour de France was to begin, three cyclists failed a mandatory EPO test
and were expelled from competition (King5.com, 2000). Perhaps the
magnitude of this problem in cycling is best summarised by Daniel Delegove,
the presiding judge of the doping trial of France's cycling superstar Richard
Virenque. After hearing compelling evidence of widespread doping, Judge
Delegove said, These are not racers, they are pedaling test tubes' (Ford,
2000: 1).
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Old 01-29-15, 05:43 PM
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Here is the deal with Greg Lemond, he wants to run around accusing others of doping in the same sport he was once a star in. The fact is Greg Lemond's word is not worth the paper it is written on when it comes to his anti drug crusade. Why you ask? Simple, until Greg Lemond shows all of his own medical records and names his doctors to prove he was clean he just can't be trusted. Just Greg Lemond spouting off at the mouth saying he was clean is not good enough. Again I find it very hard to believe that Greg Lemond was capable of beating other world class cyclists who were using drugs and yes EPO during Lemond's era for Lemond to have been squeaky clean like he tries to claim but never puts up any proof of.

This is real simple Greg Lemond, put up or shut up big guy.

We all know that Greg Lemond will never put up and sadly he refuses to shut up. I stand by my opinion that Greg Lemond was a doper just like the rest in his era.
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Old 01-29-15, 06:05 PM
  #111  
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Not very "strong" speculation considering that Epogen, the first synthetic erthyropoetin (EPO) drug, was approved by the US FDA in June 1989. Before that, Epogen was not commercially available. Do you think bike racers in the 1980s built a biotech lab and created their own synthetic EPO, or got themselves sick enough to enroll into clinical trials of experimental drug?
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Old 01-29-15, 06:35 PM
  #112  
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There was plenty of drug use during Gregg's time. Look it up. Lauren fignon. Pedro delgato. Many others
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Old 01-29-15, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Domane
Me thinks you should take long hard look in the mirror slick.

Notice the dates in this section below and try and tell me Lemond was clean and beating others who were doping. Yeah right. Lemond doped no doubt about it. Armstrong's era just took doping to the next level and when one got caught they were offered deals to turn in the others. Doping is still going on today just as it went on during Lemond's day. By the way genius I was not talking about him being shot but rather his excuse for why he suddenly went from also ran in a race to world beater by saying he was given B-12 shots and Iron shots. Sorry but that dog don't hunt.

Notice also the date for EPO use and deaths attributed to EPO in the late 1980's. Gee was that not during part of the Greg Lemond era. Are you really still going to try and pass off that Greg Lemond was able to beat cyclists using EPO?
Cycling
Cycling plays a central role in the explosion of stimulant use in sport after
World War Two. Ludwig Prokop (1970: 46) describes cycling competitions of
that era as 'special hotbeds of doping.' Of 25 urine samples taken from riders
in a 1955 race, five were positive for stimulants. In the 1960 Rome Olympic
Games, Knud Jensen, a 23-year-old Danish cyclist, collapsed during
competition and died. Autopsy results revealed the presence of
amphetamines (Donohoe & Johnson, 1986). During the thirteenth leg of the
1967 Tour de France, English cyclist Tom Simpson, 29, collapsed and died.
His autopsy showed high levels of methamphetamine, 'a vial of which had
been found in his pocket at the time of his death' (Gilbert, 1969b: 37). The
impact of Simpson's death was extensive, in part because 'this was the first
doping death to be televised' (Donohoe & Johnson, 1986: 8). His death
substantially added to the mounting pressure on the IOC and member
federations to establish doping control programs, which they did at the end of
1967 (Ferstle, 2000). One year later another cyclist, Yves Mottin, died from
'excessive amphetamine use' two days after winning a race (Todd & Todd,
2001:69).
Tests conducted on Belgian cyclists in 1965 showed that 37 per cent of
professionals and 23 per cent of amateurs were using amphetamines, while
reports from Italy showed that 46 per cent of professional cyclists tested
positive for doping (Donohoe & Johnson, 1986). In 1967 Jacques Anquetil, a
five-time winner of the Tour de France, stated:
For 50 years bike racers have been taking stimulants. Obviously
we can do without them in a race, but then we will pedal 15 miles
an hour [instead of 25]. Since we are constantly asked to go
faster and to make even greater efforts, we are obliged to take
stimulants (qf. Gilbert, 1969b: 32).
Longtime team masseur for professional cycling, Willy Voet,
summarised the past forty years of doping in cycling by describing the three
drug eras of the sport: amphetamines in the 1960s and 1970s, anabolic
steroids and cortisone in the 1980s, and, thereafter, hGH and erythropoietin
(EPO) (Swift, 1999). In fact, there is strong speculation that more than a
dozen deaths of elite cyclists that took place the late 1980s were the result of
the use of EPO (Ramotar, 1990; Fisher, 1991).
The breadth and depth of the level of doping in the cycling world were
exposed to full public view in 1998 when Voet was arrested by French
customs police for transporting performance-enhancing drugs. Voet began
detailing the use of drugs in cycling, and a large-scale investigation by both
French and Italian authorities, as well as by a number of journalists, ensued.
The results of these investigations implicated many of the top teams and
riders in the sport as part of a highly organised, sophisticated and long-lived
doping scheme (USA Today, 1998d: 3C; Swift, 1999). Just hours before the
2000 Tour de France was to begin, three cyclists failed a mandatory EPO test
and were expelled from competition (King5.com, 2000). Perhaps the
magnitude of this problem in cycling is best summarised by Daniel Delegove,
the presiding judge of the doping trial of France's cycling superstar Richard
Virenque. After hearing compelling evidence of widespread doping, Judge
Delegove said, These are not racers, they are pedaling test tubes' (Ford,
2000: 1).
Uh, where did I say that Lemond did not dope? Looks to me like you went through a lot of trouble but still have not cited as you said, "the facts", only a bunch of speculative hor$e$****. "Lemond doped, no doubt about it", yeah we'll all trust that you're some kind of expert and know more about Lemond than the rest of us. Wanna try again Skippy?
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Old 01-29-15, 06:59 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by thehammerdog
There was plenty of drug use during Gregg's time. Look it up. Lauren fignon. Pedro delgato. Many others
That is not disputed anywhere in this thread. Is there a point you're trying to make here?
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Old 01-29-15, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by whitemax
That is not disputed anywhere in this thread. Is there a point you're trying to make here?
Indeed many here going st lance as if he was the only one guilty. Lemons was never caught. But many around him were dirty. Sport is dirty. Lance was a dik. But lemons should man up or shut up. He is s USA hero but adik as much as lance. This all.
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Old 01-29-15, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by thehammerdog
Indeed many here going st lance as if he was the only one guilty. Lemons was never caught. But many around him were dirty. Sport is dirty. Lance was a dik. But lemons should man up or shut up. He is s USA hero but adik as much as lance. This all.
did somebody move New Jersey to Azerbaijan without telling me?

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Old 01-29-15, 11:55 PM
  #117  
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This is kind of person Greg Lemond was and is:

Huffy:

Sponsorship of world class and professional cyclists was only partially effective, as famous teams and riders, such as Greg LeMond and the 7-Eleven team used the Huffy sponsorship for financial support while openly maligning the company and even using different bicycles for competition while sponsored by Huffy. The subsequent fallout in the cycling community was devastating to Huffy, but not surprising considering the nature of the athletes involved.

Real stand up guy that Greg Lemond.
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Old 01-30-15, 08:19 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Domane
This is kind of person Greg Lemond was and is:

Huffy:

Sponsorship of world class and professional cyclists was only partially effective, as famous teams and riders, such as Greg LeMond and the 7-Eleven team used the Huffy sponsorship for financial support while openly maligning the company and even using different bicycles for competition while sponsored by Huffy. The subsequent fallout in the cycling community was devastating to Huffy, but not surprising considering the nature of the athletes involved.

Real stand up guy that Greg Lemond.

Can you support that from anywhere else other than Huffy?

J.
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Old 01-30-15, 09:25 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by jyl
Not very "strong" speculation considering that Epogen, the first synthetic erthyropoetin (EPO) drug, was approved by the US FDA in June 1989. Before that, Epogen was not commercially available. Do you think bike racers in the 1980s built a biotech lab and created their own synthetic EPO, or got themselves sick enough to enroll into clinical trials of experimental drug?
but was EPO available in Europe or elsewhere? The FDA often takes its time approving drugs/devices that become available outside the US earlier. It may have also been available via "clinical trials" before general release. That being said, "strong speculation" means bupkis.
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Old 01-30-15, 10:34 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by dbf73
but was EPO available in Europe or elsewhere? The FDA often takes its time approving drugs/devices that become available outside the US earlier. It may have also been available via "clinical trials" before general release. That being said, "strong speculation" means bupkis.
The drug commonly called "EPO" is epotin alfa, brand names Epogen/Procrit in the US where it was approved June 1989, brand names Eprex/Erypro in Europe where it was approved in 1990. https://www.spnefro.pt/nefro_portugue..._artigo_04.pdf

Very limited quantities of drug were used in clinical trials before approval, but those would not have been available unless the bike racer was under a doctor's care for chronic kidney disease and resultant anemia and enrolled in a clinical trial. Clinical trial drugs are tightly controlled and enrollment in trials is also tightly controlled, because the drug makers have billions at stake. I don't know the exact number, but probably only a couple-or-few hundred patients got drug in those trials.

It is very clear that Tours were not being won using EPO before 1991. How quickly bike racers started using the drug after it was approved and started being commercially sold, I don't know, but I'd think from 1992-on an increasing number of racers started using it. That is about when clean riders started getting dropped.

LeMond's Tours were won in 1986, 1989, and 1990. He definitely won them without EPO. Ditto his World Championships in 1983 and 1989.

Did he use other drugs - amphetamines, cortisone, etc? He could have, those drugs were not unknown in the peleton in his generation and earlier generations. But there is no evidence that he did. And those drugs are very "small potatoes" compared to EPO and later blood doping. The big doping problem in cycling was EPO/blood transfusions - those are the drugs that transformed good riders into world beaters - like Lance.

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Old 01-30-15, 12:57 PM
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I first read A Rough Ride in, I think, 1991. I was 13 years old and on a cycling trip in the Netherlands at the time. I'm not 100% sure if it was a first edition, or if a chapter had been added in a reprint, but in a book published in 1990, Kimmage definitely had heard of this new drug EPO that was making its way into the peloton, and may or may not have already been responsible for the death of 2 young Dutch cyclists. It's entirely possible that, as has been said here before, in the early years it was really hard to come by, so it may well have been 92, 93 before we can say for sure that EPO had taken over the whole sport.

As a (then) young cycling fan, I have to claim a bit of foresight in that I named Indurain my favourite for the 91 Tour before the start, owing to his success in the mountains, his strong showing in the Vuelta earlier that year, the fact that he should have been placed higher in 1990 except for having to work for Delgado, and his obvious ability in the TT. In the years after, things did get a bit boring with him winning all the time, but there's no doubt in my mind that even before EPO became widespread, Indurain was a Tour Champ in the making.

Lemond, in Slaying the Badger, claimed that he was stronger going into the 91 Tour than any year before, and that he should have been able to compete but the race was too much faster, and he couldn't keep up. It's a bad metric obviously, but the 91 Tour winner's average speed was 38.747km/h, compared to 38.621 in 90. Indurain's 94 win averaged only 37.381! So I don't buy the "it was sooo much faster" line, as much as the point that was made by some at the time; Lemond brought a Z team full of climbers to the 91 Tour, but they had to defend the yellow for a lot of the flat stages in the first 11 days. By the time they got to the Pyrenees, Millar, Cornillet, Boyer etc were spent and couldn't offer Greg any help, so he was isolated right from the *** on the first day in the mountains.
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Old 01-30-15, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
I first read A Rough Ride in, I think, 1991. I was 13 years old and on a cycling trip in the Netherlands at the time. I'm not 100% sure if it was a first edition, or if a chapter had been added in a reprint, but in a book published in 1990, Kimmage definitely had heard of this new drug EPO that was making its way into the peloton, and may or may not have already been responsible for the death of 2 young Dutch cyclists. It's entirely possible that, as has been said here before, in the early years it was really hard to come by, so it may well have been 92, 93 before we can say for sure that EPO had taken over the whole sport.

As a (then) young cycling fan, I have to claim a bit of foresight in that I named Indurain my favourite for the 91 Tour before the start, owing to his success in the mountains, his strong showing in the Vuelta earlier that year, the fact that he should have been placed higher in 1990 except for having to work for Delgado, and his obvious ability in the TT. In the years after, things did get a bit boring with him winning all the time, but there's no doubt in my mind that even before EPO became widespread, Indurain was a Tour Champ in the making.

Lemond, in Slaying the Badger, claimed that he was stronger going into the 91 Tour than any year before, and that he should have been able to compete but the race was too much faster, and he couldn't keep up. It's a bad metric obviously, but the 91 Tour winner's average speed was 38.747km/h, compared to 38.621 in 90. Indurain's 94 win averaged only 37.381! So I don't buy the "it was sooo much faster" line, as much as the point that was made by some at the time; Lemond brought a Z team full of climbers to the 91 Tour, but they had to defend the yellow for a lot of the flat stages in the first 11 days. By the time they got to the Pyrenees, Millar, Cornillet, Boyer etc were spent and couldn't offer Greg any help, so he was isolated right from the *** on the first day in the mountains.
Aside from your early reflection about Lemond, can you distill down how your comments are relevant to discussion in the context of doping? Maybe you were simply talking about Lemond without intent to relate to discussion. In effect, based upon your story, Lemond was right, he wasn't fast enough. He couldn't keep up because his team wasn't up to it as stated. Not sure how that relates to discussion about Lemond however in terms of standing as a clean rider. Maybe you could explain further.
Thanks
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Old 01-30-15, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Domane
Here is the deal with Greg Lemond, he wants to run around accusing others of doping in the same sport he was once a star in. The fact is Greg Lemond's word is not worth the paper it is written on when it comes to his anti drug crusade. Why you ask? Simple, until Greg Lemond shows all of his own medical records and names his doctors to prove he was clean he just can't be trusted. Just Greg Lemond spouting off at the mouth saying he was clean is not good enough. Again I find it very hard to believe that Greg Lemond was capable of beating other world class cyclists who were using drugs and yes EPO during Lemond's era for Lemond to have been squeaky clean like he tries to claim but never puts up any proof of.

This is real simple Greg Lemond, put up or shut up big guy.

We all know that Greg Lemond will never put up and sadly he refuses to shut up. I stand by my opinion that Greg Lemond was a doper just like the rest in his era.
Are you a sock puppet for Lance? I mean, really, I'm starting to wonder.
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Old 01-30-15, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
I first read A Rough Ride in, I think, 1991. I was 13 years old and on a cycling trip in the Netherlands at the time. I'm not 100% sure if it was a first edition, or if a chapter had been added in a reprint, but in a book published in 1990, Kimmage definitely had heard of this new drug EPO that was making its way into the peloton, and may or may not have already been responsible for the death of 2 young Dutch cyclists. It's entirely possible that, as has been said here before, in the early years it was really hard to come by, so it may well have been 92, 93 before we can say for sure that EPO had taken over the whole sport.

As a (then) young cycling fan, I have to claim a bit of foresight in that I named Indurain my favourite for the 91 Tour before the start, owing to his success in the mountains, his strong showing in the Vuelta earlier that year, the fact that he should have been placed higher in 1990 except for having to work for Delgado, and his obvious ability in the TT. In the years after, things did get a bit boring with him winning all the time, but there's no doubt in my mind that even before EPO became widespread, Indurain was a Tour Champ in the making.

Lemond, in Slaying the Badger, claimed that he was stronger going into the 91 Tour than any year before, and that he should have been able to compete but the race was too much faster, and he couldn't keep up. It's a bad metric obviously, but the 91 Tour winner's average speed was 38.747km/h, compared to 38.621 in 90. Indurain's 94 win averaged only 37.381! So I don't buy the "it was sooo much faster" line, as much as the point that was made by some at the time; Lemond brought a Z team full of climbers to the 91 Tour, but they had to defend the yellow for a lot of the flat stages in the first 11 days. By the time they got to the Pyrenees, Millar, Cornillet, Boyer etc were spent and couldn't offer Greg any help, so he was isolated right from the *** on the first day in the mountains.
Lot's of reasons why the overall speed average in '94 may have been slower. One thing is for sure, Indurain rode like an absolute boss that year. I'm still amazed at how as big as he was, he was able to climb like he did.
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Old 01-30-15, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
Aside from your early reflection about Lemond, can you distill down how your comments are relevant to discussion in the context of doping? Maybe you were simply talking about Lemond without intent to relate to discussion. In effect, based upon your story, Lemond was right, he wasn't fast enough. He couldn't keep up because his team wasn't up to it as stated. Not sure how that relates to discussion about Lemond however in terms of standing as a clean rider. Maybe you could explain further.
Thanks
Can you explain how Tiger Woods being an unpleasant individual is relevant on a cycling forum?

My post was about the timing of EPO coming into the peloton, which is agreed to be around the early 90s, and evidence of when it came in. Like I said, Kimmage was writing about EPO in a book published in 1990, so it must have been out there at that time.

It was also about how Lemond (the subject of this thread) seems to be of the belief that EPO landed in the Tour in 91, and that's why he lost the Tour that year. I contend that there are a few reasons Lemond lost the Tour that year, and if EPO was indeed one of them, it wasn't the only one.
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