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Salsa Vaya -- Soma Double Cross Disc

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Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Salsa Vaya -- Soma Double Cross Disc

Old 05-20-15, 01:30 PM
  #26  
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There's a lot to untangle here, but I'm going to recklessly jump into this stack-reach discussion.

First, Mr. IGH is correct when he insists that stack and reach are the best way to compare bikes. If you want a new bike that fits the same as an old one, the best way to do it is to match stack and reach. That said, you can't compare stack and reach independently. Two bikes with the same reach but very different stack are going to fit very differently.

At the end of the day bike geometry does boil down to geometry. If you project each bike onto a piece of graph paper, you can make the fit the same by lining up the three contact points to be the same. Your new calculations regarding how head tube angle introduces a change in reach is spot on. I'm not sure what the calculation you used in the spreadsheet earlier was, but that was incorrect. In general, the effective reach will come down about one unit for every three units you increase the handlebar height.

However, there are some other things to consider here. One is that the Vaya is designed to fit a much more upright riding position than the DCD. You can probably make them fit the same with the right combination of spacers and stem, but whether or not you want to is a different question. I said earlier that lining up the three contact points will result in the two bikes having the same fit, but it will have other effects. Most notably, as you change the position of the handlebars you are also changing your weight distribution relative to the wheels. A bike's geometry is selected, at least in theory, to achieve a certain desired distribution of rider weight relative to the wheels of the bike. As you raise the handlebars, you are effectively shifting your center of gravity up and back. This will have some effect on the handling of the bike. It's probably within the range of being OK, but it's a difference to consider.

The thing is while matching stack and reach will duplicate the effective fit of the bike, that isn't the only fit that will work for you. Your body bends in a lot of places and as a result there is a range of positions that will work. The thing they have in common is that they achieve a balance where your weight is basically equally distributed in front of and behind the bottom bracket while the saddle is at the right height to allow your leg mechanics to function optimally.

At this point, it gets complicated in a hurry. A few things can be sketched out roughly. As you lean over more, your hips need to come back to compensate. If you don't want to change how much you lean over, there is still a range of handlebar positions that will work as you rotate your arms and bend your elbows. The key thing here is that as you move the bars higher they will feel closer because your arms extend further as you lift them. There's a very enlightening article about this here: https://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=33

What I'm trying to say here is that I think buying a Double Cross and essentially trying to turn it into a Vaya with shorter chain stays is a bad idea. If you want something sportier, try the Double Cross with a different fit. Maybe test ride a few bikes in the shop with similar stack and reach to get a better point of comparison than the Vaya offers.

On the other hand, if you like the riding position of the Vaya, keep the Vaya and just get better tires. Absolutely nothing makes more difference in ride quality than switching to really good tires. The Paselas that Mr IGH mentioned are a decent tire at reasonable price. If you are willing to spend more, consider the Continental Grand Prix 4 Season. They cost about twice what the Paselas do, but I think the ride is significantly better and in my experience they have better puncture protection (though I didn't use Paselas for long, so I may have just had bad luck). There's supposed to be a 700x32 version of the GP 4 Seasons available this summer. It's at the top of my wish list.
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Old 05-20-15, 01:36 PM
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I've owned/ridden a lot of adventure/gravel bikes (including many of the ones mentioned in this thread), and the one I always come back to is the Vaya.
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Old 05-20-15, 04:51 PM
  #28  
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indeed, that first spreadsheet was awful, but helped me understand the relationship between stack and reach by showing me how those two measurements are not related. my later calculations involved drawing a lot of triangles and applying trig. the conclusion that I reached is that two bikes with the same ETT or the same reach will not really fit the same if they have a different stack. the DC has a much shorter stack, so I hypothetically raised the stack to the same size as the Vaya and applied trig to the head tube angle to see what the effective reach is as a result. that leads me to believe that the both frames in 54cm are effectively the same size, even though the posted reach and ETT are different. I could draw you all some triangles to prove how i got this, but just trust that I figured that out.

so I feel confident that I can get the right frame size that way, but that does not mean that the DC is going to suit me better. I will have to take everything mentioned here into account before I do anything. One of my coworkers has been lusting after an orange Vaya for years, which is what I have, and wants to buy it from me, which would give me most of the funds to get a Soma instead. the question is- would I benefit from a bike with a higher BB, shorter CS, shorter HT, and probably slightly less weight. I might end up with a tall stem and/or a lot of spacers to get it comfortable.

I had a Pake C'mute previously, which has geo closer to the DC but with linear pull brakes and barcons. I didn't care for those two features and it was more cost-effective for me to sell the Pake and buy this Vaya than try to upgrade the Pake. The C'mute is an awesome bike though, I recommend it for a low-cost all-rounder!

I am definitely going to put some lighter tires on for my next long ride. I use the Tour Rides for commuting to work because I believe they are the least likely tire to get flats on and make me late. 32mm Paselas are at the top of my list for that role.

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Old 05-20-15, 05:46 PM
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More BB drop is, IME, a good thing. Generally not a fan of 'cross frames with high BBs.
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Old 05-22-15, 09:38 PM
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not sure this is 100% accurate, but it is a start. bikegeo.cc

a 54cm Double Cross with a 80mm stem pointed up is pretty darn close to what I have now.
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Old 06-04-15, 07:49 AM
  #31  
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I went with the 52cm gold DCD. I see how a 54 could have worked with a shorter stem, but this works fine. put on about 30 miles or road, gravel path, and singletrack last night right after I finished building it. so much fun! noticeably more agile than the Vaya.

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Old 06-11-15, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DirtRoadRunner
A 1 lb difference in frame weight is negligible (a whopping 4% if you compare a 24 lb bike to a 25 lb bike), and very few riders would even notice it.

On the other hand, a 7 lb difference (going from a 18 lb bike to a 25 lb bike) is a 40% increase an is very noticeable. I notice it every time I alternate between my two bikes.

A pound or two of frame or component weight is barely noticeable, and will make a negligible difference in climbing when all things are equal. When it starts getting to 4,5, 6, or 7 lbs, the difference is immediately discrenable as soon as you pedal away.

A DCD with the same wheels/tires/components as a Vaya will climb just marginally faster (though it will handle better). Neither bike is a good setup for flying up hills. My point is that switching to the DCD from the Vaya may result in better handling, but won't result in faster climbing because they are still both heavy, steel bikes.
How heavy are you?
If you are 175 lbs and the bike weights 25 lbs the one pund difference in total weight is .5%.

If you want the Vaya to climb faster
1. Put on lighter tires, some nice 28mm
2. If you want to spend some $, get lighter wheels and reduce the rotating mass, it will help with acceleration.
3. have the engine work on climbs. I always like the look on peoples face when I pass going up a hill on my Tandem or my Vaya.

If you just want a new frame, then go for it.
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Old 06-11-15, 11:04 AM
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I already did get a new frame.
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